View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 33 of 60 FirstFirst ... 23313233343543 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 330 of 595

Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #321
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:30 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,532
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I think it is important to ask for facts and proof, but it is also important to ask what was the logical process a poster uses when he or she presents a arguement.
    How does one provide proof of an opinion, an idea, or something interesting that he/she read or heard somewhere that is pertinent or adds something else to think about in a discussion? Yes, if I choose not to ignore the really stupid trollish one-liners like "Bush lied - people died" or "All liberals are lunatics" or "Republicans hate black people", I might ask for evidence from a reliable source just to shut the person up. And there are times that a person cites percentages or statistics that just don't ring authentic, and I might ask where the person got their numbers.

    But to ask for a link every time a person makes an argument is not only unnecessary, but really bogs down a discussion.

    And I want to scream every time what would or could have been a really interesting discussion gets derailed by those stupid one-liners or somebody's ad hominem or personal insult or somebody's challenge to somebody's source or whatever--the discussion invariably then becomes about that instead of the intended topic.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #322
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that your claim is fact.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #323
    Sage
    Unitedwestand13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sunnyvale California
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    14,985

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    How does one provide proof of an opinion, an idea, or something interesting that he/she read or heard somewhere that is pertinent or adds something else to think about in a discussion? Yes, if I choose not to ignore the really stupid trollish one-liners like "Bush lied - people died" or "All liberals are lunatics" or "Republicans hate black people", I might ask for evidence from a reliable source just to shut the person up. And there are times that a person cites percentages or statistics that just don't ring authentic, and I might ask where the person got their numbers.

    But to ask for a link every time a person makes an argument is not only unnecessary, but really bogs down a discussion.

    And I want to scream every time what would or could have been a really interesting discussion gets derailed by those stupid one-liners or somebody's ad hominem or personal insult or somebody's challenge to somebody's source or whatever--the discussion invariably then becomes about that instead of the intended topic.
    ask for the sources that the link is based on, and judge the merit of those source.
    "If you can't stand the way this place is, Take yourself to higher places!"
    Break, By Three days grace

    Hilliary Clinton/Tim Kaine 2016

  4. #324
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,400

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Provide the verifiable evidence that your claim is fact.
    I've explained self evidence. I've explained how that self evidence prompts a survey experiment that establishes these rights as natural social objects via the scientific method. I've explained that inalienable does not mean inviolable, it means inherent to humans as a species.

    Natural rights are a scientific fact. Sociology is not a scam, a trick or fake science. The founders, of course, had the intellectual adeptness to understand this. That some people are confused or otherwise left in the dark regarding the concept is sad and most are not bad people they're just ignorant.

  5. #325
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I've explained self evidence. I've explained how that self evidence prompts a survey experiment that establishes these rights as natural social objects via the scientific method. I've explained that inalienable does not mean inviolable, it means inherent to humans as a species.

    Natural rights are a scientific fact. Sociology is not a scam, a trick or fake science. The founders, of course, had the intellectual adeptness to understand this. That some people are confused or otherwise left in the dark regarding the concept is sad and most are not bad people they're just ignorant.
    If you are referring to your recent posts in which you started out with a survey asking people a question - I pointed out to you that your results were not scientific evidence of the existence of natural rights no matter how scientific your survey itself was.

    Do understand the difference between employing the scientific method to prove something and taking a survey?

    You made this statement here today:
    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.
    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #326
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,400

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do understand the difference between employing the scientific method to prove something and taking a survey?
    Do you understand survey is a scientific method and means of producing empirical evidence?

    I thought this was taught in HS.

  7. #327
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Do you understand survey is a scientific method and means of producing empirical evidence?

    I thought this was taught in HS.
    You are badly confusing two very different things:
    1- a survey - no matter how carefully put together is still only in the end a survey of opinion and nothing more than that.
    2- that is not at all the same as the scientific employed and used to prove the existence of a fact which can be tested using that method and replicated over and over and over again.

    this should help you learn the difference so you avoid this error in the future

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

    http://www.schoolofdragons.com/how-t...hod-worksheets

    No survey of what any group of people believe can prove the existence of something which only exists within a belief system and not outside of it. To do that you need to divorce the belief from the believers and anyone should then be able to employ some sort of evidence based scientific test to prove that natural rights exists.

    You were not able to do that in your response.

    You are not able to do that now.

    Nobody in history has ever been able to do that.

    So now that we have disposed of that, lets get back to the claim of fact that you made here today. You made this statement here today:

    It's not demonization. It's fact. Those that deny human rights are ignorant and detached from humanity in their denial of empathy being inherent to humans.

    Not opinion, not belief... fact.

    Provide the verifiable evidence that people who disagree with you on the belief in natural rights are
    1- ignorant
    2- detached from humanity
    3- they lack empathy as humans
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 05:49 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #328
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,400

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are badly confusing two very different things:
    1- a survey - no matter how carefully put together is still only in the end a survey of opinion
    2- that is not at all the same as the scientific employed and used to prove the existence of a fact which can be tested using that method and replicated over and over and over again.
    I'm the one with an MSc and PhD(c). Your understanding of basic science is atrocious.

    Survey is, beyond any doubt or question, a scientific experiment capable of being repeated and thus establishing empirical evidence.

    If you doubt this, go look it up.

  9. #329
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'm the one with an MSc and PhD(c). Your understanding of basic science is atrocious.

    Survey is, beyond any doubt or question, a scientific experiment capable of being repeated and thus establishing empirical evidence.

    If you doubt this, go look it up.
    So tell me again how a survey of peoples opinion - which is what you provided before when you failed the challenge to provide proof of a natural rights - provides irrefutable evidence that a belief exists outside of a belief?

    Tell us how a survey of beliefs can do that?

    here is your 138

    1. Self evidence

    We can ask ourselves the question: "would I give up my right to life in order to take it away from all others". The answer to this question is always no. This establishes the self evidence of the right, regardless of any governmental authority.

    2. The experiment is expanded to N=20 and beyond.

    We can ask any number of groups of people (with like power) this question. Every individual will answer the same as we did. This establishes, as a matter of scientific experiment, that the right to life is a natural right and not dependent upon government authority.

    3. We must understand that inalienable does not equal inviolable.

    A right can be violated (both justly and unjustly). This does not make the right cease to exist. Just because someone is murdered does not mean they had no right to life; clearly, they had a right to life and it was violated.

    When we speak of inalienable, we are referring to the universality of natural rights among people and not an imagined inviolability of any right.

    4. We must grasp that this experiment and the understanding that comes with it is the basis of the US Constitution.

    If we understand the concept of natural rights, then we understand the revolutionary nature of the government created by the founders. Only through this understanding can the Constitution be interpreted rationally.

    Natural rights are socially natural objects. The arise in every like-powered group of people and they always will.
    The centerpiece of your evidence is a mere question asked to 20 people about their opinion on some nonsense question if they would give up their right to life in order to take it away from all others.

    What does that question even mean?

    What right to life are you talking about? Do you mean the simple reality that they are alive?

    And how does this then take away the lives of others? What does that even mean?

    Its nonsense and has nothing to do with reality. And it establishes nothing except its a silly question which takes us nowhere and proves nothing and is based on inane nonsense.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-01-14 at 05:57 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #330
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,400

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So tell me again how a survey of peoples opinion - which is what you provided before when you failed the challenge to provide proof of a natural rights - provides irrefutable evidence that a belief exists outside of a belief?

    Tell us how a survey of beliefs can do that?
    The survey establishes the universality (of course, being a sociological concept, the insane are not included) of natural rights. This universality is the result of empathy, which is (like the social objects produced) inalienable from humans.

Page 33 of 60 FirstFirst ... 23313233343543 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •