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Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

  • Total voters
    57
  • Poll closed .
Re: Proof and Facts

SMTA said:
So you do not understand the phrase?
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Its your shorthand way of saying that you cannot prove anything. I understand it too well.

The idea that you would use such a BS phrase in a discussion on people failing to provide evidence or proof is amazing as it is an indictment upon your own tactics and failings.

YOu are NOT talking about somebody challenging you to prove the sun rises in the east or that it snows in Minnesota in January. So get real and stop the BS nonsense and start getting some backbone and prove your claims about me.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Mycroft said:
Certainly.
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I bet you do. :roll: Most people come here to relax, debate and/or enjoy themselves. Most people don't come here to practice their skills in the courtroom.

I doubt you invest hours, days, weeks or months into proving something just so you can say, "Ah ha. I gotcha." It just isn't worth it.

In court someone's life is on the line or justice is on the line. In here we are just having a lot of fun. It isn't worth 40 or 50 hours to prove someone right or wrong in my opinion. Anybody who claims otherwise is a complete phoney.

No I won't prove that. They already know they are lying and don't need me to tell them they are lying. I have never seen proof provided anywhere in these forums. Whenever someone pretends they are providing "proof" the "proof" is always dismissed as invalid. Demanding proof, evidence or facts is just an example of someone killing the discussion when it isn't going the way they want it. That's all it is. A demand for proof is an empty threat disguised as genuine inquiry.

If someone really wanted proof they could find more reliable information on their own. That way you could trust the sources that you find credible and ignore the ones that someone else finds credible.

If you want proof. Go get it. Don't beg for it like a little liar.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

celticwar17 said:
It depends, logic arguments don't need proof. You show the logic is not sound or try to claim one of the premises is false by providing proof of your own against all the premises.

Sometimes people try to pressure proof for a logic argument, just to derail/hack a thread.

And a problem with the internet is you can provide "proof" that pigs fly....
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Yep you can...

flying-pig.jpg

:mrgreen:
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Its your shorthand way of saying that you cannot prove anything. I understand it too well.

The idea that you would use such a BS phrase in a discussion on people failing to provide evidence or proof is amazing as it is an indictment upon your own tactics and failings.

YOu are NOT talking about somebody challenging you to prove the sun rises in the east or that it snows in Minnesota in January. So get real and stop the BS nonsense and start getting some backbone and prove your claims about me.
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Ah, you really do not understand judicial notice, then.

I see.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
I bet you do. :roll: Most people come here to relax, debate and/or enjoy themselves. Most people don't come here to practice their skills in the courtroom.

I doubt you invest hours, days, weeks or months into proving something just so you can say, "Ah ha. I gotcha." It just isn't worth it.

In court someone's life is on the line or justice is on the line. In here we are just having a lot of fun. It isn't worth 40 or 50 hours to prove someone right or wrong in my opinion. Anybody who claims otherwise is a complete phoney.

No I won't prove that. They already know they are lying and don't need me to tell them they are lying. I have never seen proof provided anywhere in these forums. Whenever someone pretends they are providing "proof" the "proof" is always dismissed as invalid. Demanding proof, evidence or facts is just an example of someone killing the discussion when it isn't going the way they want it. That's all it is. A demand for proof is an empty threat disguised as genuine inquiry.

If someone really wanted proof they could find more reliable information on their own. That way you could trust the sources that you find credible and ignore the ones that someone else finds credible.

If you want proof. Go get it. Don't beg for it like a little liar.
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Well, aren't you the soothsayer expert on what everybody else says or knows!

Care to share the Mega Millions winning numbers?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
I bet you do. :roll: Most people come here to relax, debate and/or enjoy themselves. Most people don't come here to practice their skills in the courtroom.

I doubt you invest hours, days, weeks or months into proving something just so you can say, "Ah ha. I gotcha." It just isn't worth it.

In court someone's life is on the line or justice is on the line. In here we are just having a lot of fun. It isn't worth 40 or 50 hours to prove someone right or wrong in my opinion. Anybody who claims otherwise is a complete phoney.

No I won't prove that. They already know they are lying and don't need me to tell them they are lying. I have never seen proof provided anywhere in these forums. Whenever someone pretends they are providing "proof" the "proof" is always dismissed as invalid. Demanding proof, evidence or facts is just an example of someone killing the discussion when it isn't going the way they want it. That's all it is. A demand for proof is an empty threat disguised as genuine inquiry.

If someone really wanted proof they could find more reliable information on their own. That way you could trust the sources that you find credible and ignore the ones that someone else finds credible.

If you want proof. Go get it. Don't beg for it like a little liar.
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"In a court"???

Now you are just being silly. We're talking about DP, here. Not a court.

Anyway, you asked me a question. I gave you my answer. You really don't need to go off the deep end about it.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
I bet you do. :roll: Most people come here to relax, debate and/or enjoy themselves. Most people don't come here to practice their skills in the courtroom.

I doubt you invest hours, days, weeks or months into proving something just so you can say, "Ah ha. I gotcha." It just isn't worth it.

In court someone's life is on the line or justice is on the line. In here we are just having a lot of fun. It isn't worth 40 or 50 hours to prove someone right or wrong in my opinion. Anybody who claims otherwise is a complete phoney.

No I won't prove that. They already know they are lying and don't need me to tell them they are lying. I have never seen proof provided anywhere in these forums. Whenever someone pretends they are providing "proof" the "proof" is always dismissed as invalid. Demanding proof, evidence or facts is just an example of someone killing the discussion when it isn't going the way they want it. That's all it is. A demand for proof is an empty threat disguised as genuine inquiry.

If someone really wanted proof they could find more reliable information on their own. That way you could trust the sources that you find credible and ignore the ones that someone else finds credible.

If you want proof. Go get it. Don't beg for it like a little liar.
Click to expand...

Claiming that someone doesn't go out of their way to find proof without proof that they don't is like the pot calling the kettle black. No bueno.

For some people finding proof is a way to relax and can be considered fun for the simple fact that they can also be teaching themselves as they may find something that they weren't aware of previously. I have spent hours looking for proof before just because it can be fun and i'm interested in the topic to begin with. Personally I won't try and find proof for something i'm not interested in, but if its a subject that I am interested in, yes, I'll spend hours and hours looking information up.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

SMTA said:
Well, aren't you the soothsayer expert on what everybody else says or knows!

Care to share the Mega Millions winning numbers?
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It's usually 8 or 4.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

SMTA said:
Ah, you really do not understand judicial notice, then.

I see.
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I understand it too well.

Judicial notice is a rule in the law of evidence that allows a fact to be introduced into evidence if the truth of that fact is so notorious or well known, or so authoritatively attested, that it cannot reasonably be doubted.
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Q - Where have your claims about me been "authoritatively tested"?
A - Nowhere.


It is you using a BS phrase which actually means you are impotent to present any actual evidence of your claims.

Sorry but your intellectually fraudulent shortcut is flushed down the crapper with the rest of its ilk. And the fact that you would pull this reeking fetid dishonesty in a thread challenging people to prove their claims is irony times ten thousand.
 
Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
I understand it too well.




Q - Where have your claims about me been "authoritatively tested"?
A - Nowhere.


It is you using a BS phrase which actually means you are impotent to present any actual evidence of your claims.

Sorry but your intellectually fraudulent shortcut is flushed down the crapper with the rest of its ilk. And the fact that you would pull this reeking fetid dishonesty in a thread challenging people to prove their claims is irony times ten thousand.
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Shall a make a poll questioning your lack of honesty in posting here to prove my point?
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

vasuderatorrent said:
Is it appropriate to demand proof and facts on Debate Politics?

From my observation 100% of posters on Debate Politics are anonymous. This is also the internet where words can be typed in any order to say anything imaginable. Concrete evidence can rarely be presented via the internet. I also think this is a place to express your opinion on interesting and non-interesting topics. Can't a person base their opinion upon a lie? Just because their opinion is based upon a lie this doesn't make their opinion any less valid. After all, it's an opinion. An opinion doesn't really hold much weight anyways. Sure occasionally an opinion can change someone's mind but that doesn't make it authoritative.

What do you guys think? Are proof and facts necessary when presenting your opinion?
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If I were trying to "win" a debate, I'd be much more conscious of facts and science, but I'm not really trying to do that. I find the process of discussion stimulating, and it isn't so much the "win" that I want- just the mind exercise. I have nothing to prove.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

Zyphlin said:
It really depends on the situation and what is "proof" being asked for. It also depends on whether or not someone is trying to present something as fact, opinion, or their anecdotal experience.
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There was an abortion where I fully admitted that my opinion was just an opinion and I admitted that I didn't have proof, yet a few people repeatedly demanded proof over many pages and I kept repeating that it was just my opinion. IIRC, I said that life begins at conception.

Then you have the opposite situation, where someone makes a specific accusation against someone, such as calling them racist, and then claims that they don't need any evidence.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

SMTA said:
Shall a make a poll questioning your lack of honesty in posting here to prove my point?
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Ah - the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy. It seems to be catching among those on the far right who want to seek the consolation of their fellow believers as a substitute for verifiable evidence.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

American said:
There are some who do that and they raise the bar higher and higher no matter what you offer up.
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and worse yet, those who demand others meet burdens of proof the requester never ever meets himself. or using inappropriate proof

for example, using a definition that is based on a colloquial definition in an argument that requires legal or statutory definitions, is a complete failure.

another failure is refusing to understand or admit the context of the issue. Picking one of four definitions might be legitimate but when the one picked is completely inappropriate for the environment in question, then its a failure of proof
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Ah - the Argumentum ad Populum fallacy. It seems to be catching among those on the far right who want to seek the consolation of their fellow believers as a substitute for verifiable evidence.
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Exactly my point regarding your lack of honesty.

Is that a Yes, or a No?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Really?!?!?!? Then why can't people provide verifiable evidence for a claim that "pre-existing natural rights" actually existed before the Constitution or state constitutions anywhere outside of a self imposed belief?
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because that is not relevant to the argument

what is relevant is that the founders believed in natural rights and there is NO DENYING that the BILL OF RIGHTS was created to recognize those rights

you want to argue the existence of natural rights when the real argument is whether the founders believed in said rights. and since they did, that pretty much short circuits claims that the 2A was intended to allow all sorts of infringements upon the right to keep and bear arms
 
Re: Proof and Facts

SMTA said:
Exactly my point regarding your lack of honesty.

Is that a Yes, or a No?
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Lack of honesty? That makes no sense. What am I not being honest about? I have pointed out the utter absurdity of the very suggestion of it. I view it with utter contempt for the gross stupidity that is is trying to pretend that a poll of biased opinion is somehow a substitute for verifiable evidence. Maybe that makes sense to the Mad hatter in Wonderland - but its sheer insanity here in the real world.

That is in your face direct nothing but honest it.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

TurtleDude said:
because that is not relevant to the argument

what is relevant is that the founders believed in natural rights and there is NO DENYING that the BILL OF RIGHTS was created to recognize those rights

you want to argue the existence of natural rights when the real argument is whether the founders believed in said rights. and since they did, that pretty much short circuits claims that the 2A was intended to allow all sorts of infringements upon the right to keep and bear arms
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It is key Turtle. You tell us over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread how natural rights pre-existed. So two questions for you:

1- where did they pre-exist outside of somebody's adopted belief system?
2- if they only existed in a belief system, how then does that pretend imaginary right actually give anybody a real life right to exercise or use in real life?

If you cannot answer those two questions satisfactorily - AND YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THEM - you got nothing.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
It is key Turtle. You tell us over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread how natural rights pre-existed. So two questions for you:

1- where did they pre-exist outside of somebody's adopted belief system?
2- if they only existed in a belief system, how then does that pretend imaginary right actually give anybody a real life right to exercise or use in real life?

If you cannot answer those two questions satisfactorily - AND YOU NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THEM - you got nothing.
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this is evasive nonsense. the point I have made 100 times and which you have ignored is that men who believed in natural rights would not author an amendment designed to recognize one of those rights that allowed the federal government all sorts of means to interfere with or limit that right

you have been educated on what the founders believed. the fact that you spend SO MUCH TIME arguing a non-issue is really very substantive proof that you know that the argument I, and other have made, is a winning one. So rather than try to deny an argument you cannot, you pretend that the issue turns on whether "natural rights" exist.

what matters is the founders thought they did and when interpreting the 2A all we have to know is that it was designed to protect a right the founders cherished

I don't have to prove natural rights exist-whatever that means

I merely have to prove that those who wrote and enacted the 2A did and that is undeniable
 
Proof and Facts

haymarket said:
Lack of honesty? That makes no sense. What am I not being honest about? I have pointed out the utter absurdity of the very suggestion of it. I view it with utter contempt for the gross stupidity that is is trying to pretend that a poll of biased opinion is somehow a substitute for verifiable evidence. Maybe that makes sense to the Mad hatter in Wonderland - but its sheer insanity here in the real world.

That is in your face direct nothing but honest it.
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How is an open poll at DP going to elicit responses from folks with biased opinions?

I can't control who will respond.

The issue is your honest representation of your information here at DP.

Polling DP folks will answer if the majority agree or disagree with that observation.

That will determine whether or not judicial notice exists here about that premise.

Now that I have debunked your incorrect cry of bias, do you agree or disagree with the poll?

Duly noted that you are incapable of answering with a direct Yes or No, which already proves my observation to be true.
 
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Re: Proof and Facts

interesting so whats that like 90% of people think facts and proof matter? imagine that. Reality matters.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.

But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?
 
Re: Proof and Facts

AlbqOwl said:
1.)I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

2.) When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.
3.)But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?
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1.) well thats just it, that stuff is not proof nor is it fact but some people push like it is and they fail every time.
2.) I agree, but just about every time pushes something as fact that I know is not i simply asked for the support and yes its always helpful for backup
3.) well ive never been in a discussion like that but if the links actually provide facts, proof and education then no absolutely not. If im interested i want to learn and know.

Now if its a topic im already not interested in then yes that could get boring fast but thats my own fault for engaging in a already boring topic.
 
Re: Proof and Facts

AlbqOwl said:
I think it just muddles and derails threads to go find something, anything, from whatever dubious source, to cut and paste as a wall of text to support your statement or argument. What makes some blogger or reporter or editor's opinion of more value than a DP member's opinion? Some of the worst of that you'll find on the global warming threads--the same people post graph after graph after graph from highly prejudiced biased sites as 'proof' and they add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

When somebody makes an absolutely outrageous statement about something, I have no problem asking or seeing somebody else ask for some evidence to support that statement. Or I will simply post a link to some evidence to rebut the statement. But most thing can be discussed without having to back up every single point made with somebody else's opinion about it. And sometimes yes, it is helpful to provide a link to a good authoritative source to back up some technical stuff.

But honestly people, don't you find discussions that are nothing but link after link after link really tedious and boring?
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When people make admissions to my facts or points, then I'll address them directly. But if there only purpose is to be obstinate, derailing and rude, at my expense, I'll try and either lead the conversation in my own direction, not reply or answer abstractly, which is usually hard to counter with links. Most people try to take control of a conversation or debate with their own Q&A, so you have to be selective in how you respond.
 
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