View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #251
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780

    The Declaration of Rights
    The Declaration of Rights protects many individual rights. It opens with a broad statement of individual freedom and equality:

    All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their Lives and Liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    The Declaration of Rights guards against excessive governmental power by prohibiting, for example, unreasonable searches and seizures, ex post facto laws, and the public taking of property without just compensation. Protected rights include the right to trial by jury, right to petition the government, and freedom of religious worship.

    The Declaration of Rights proclaims that it is the "right of every citizen to be tried by judges as free, impartial and independent as the lot of humanity will admit." Why is this provision included? Because, as Article 29 explains, it is "essential to the preservation of the rights of every individual, his life, liberty, property, and character, that there be an impartial interpretation of the laws, and administration of justice."

    The Declaration of Rights concludes with a clear statement of the separation of powers among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Three independent branches of government are dedicated to one stated purpose: "to the end it may be a government of laws and not of men."


    wow..look at those natural rights which are recognized!

  2. #252
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780

    The Declaration of Rights
    The Declaration of Rights protects many individual rights. It opens with a broad statement of individual freedom and equality:

    All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their Lives and Liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    The Declaration of Rights guards against excessive governmental power by prohibiting, for example, unreasonable searches and seizures, ex post facto laws, and the public taking of property without just compensation. Protected rights include the right to trial by jury, right to petition the government, and freedom of religious worship.

    The Declaration of Rights proclaims that it is the "right of every citizen to be tried by judges as free, impartial and independent as the lot of humanity will admit." Why is this provision included? Because, as Article 29 explains, it is "essential to the preservation of the rights of every individual, his life, liberty, property, and character, that there be an impartial interpretation of the laws, and administration of justice."

    The Declaration of Rights concludes with a clear statement of the separation of powers among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Three independent branches of government are dedicated to one stated purpose: "to the end it may be a government of laws and not of men."


    wow..look at those natural rights which are recognized!
    and claiming the founders "lied" when they said all men has absolutely ZERO to do with their view of the rights that they-white free males-wanted to protect for WHITE FREE MALES

    it is diversionary to claim that the right is different when in reality the only issue is WHO it applies to



  3. #253
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I have asked you at least three times if you claim that the founders did to want to guarantee the very rights they believed applied to THEM (not blacks, not European, not martians or Klingons)

    AND YOU continue to divert and evade

    why is that? I know-its because the answer destroys your silly argument that the founders really did not intend to protect natural rights
    Your statement that blacks were not considered as men is a outright and complete falsehood and you have presented not one shred of evidence to support such a disgusting claim. In fact, I have presented evidence from Jefferson which says the opposite.


    The idea that one would say ALL MEN have these rights and then the same people would pretend that only a certain class and race of people is entitled to them is so despicable, so disgusting , so completely abhorrent to any standard of intellectual integrity that I am shocked you would even present that line of ersatz argument.

    Your line of argument only destroys your own credibility Turtle for you are justifying both slavery and the treatment of people as other than human and you seem to relish in it as justification for their own hypocrisy.

    And here is more evidence that your claim is an outright falsehood and something you made up without any proof or foundation. Read this from a Jefferson site

    Thomas Jefferson and Slavery Thomas Jefferson

    Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery his whole life. Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty.
    Nothing in there about those lowly darkies being animals or non humans or not men Turtle. Just the opposite.

    Your argument has been flushed - and that verb is more than appropriate.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #254
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your statement that blacks were not considered as men is a outright and complete falsehood and you have presented not one shred of evidence to support such a disgusting claim. In fact, I have presented evidence from Jefferson which says the opposite.


    The idea that one would say ALL MEN have these rights and then the same people would pretend that only a certain class and race of people is entitled to them is so despicable, so disgusting , so completely abhorrent to any standard of intellectual integrity that I am shocked you would even present that line of ersatz argument.

    Your line of argument only destroys your own credibility Turtle for you are justifying both slavery and the treatment of people as other than human and you seem to relish in it as justification for their own hypocrisy.

    And here is more evidence that your claim is an outright falsehood and something you made up without any proof or foundation. Read this from a Jefferson site

    Thomas Jefferson and Slavery Thomas Jefferson



    Nothing in there about those lowly darkies being animals or non humans or not men Turtle. Just the opposite.

    Your argument has been flushed - and that verb is more than appropriate.
    more diversion

    the issue is not whether Jefferson or other founders lied in the Declaration of Independence

    the issue is not the status of slaves

    the only issue is the right that the founders intended to recognize and guarantee-a right they planned on exercising themselves

    that is the only issue



  5. #255
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and claiming the founders "lied" when they said all men has absolutely ZERO to do with their view of the rights that they-white free males-wanted to protect for WHITE FREE MALES

    it is diversionary to claim that the right is different when in reality the only issue is WHO it applies to
    the diversion... no check that ... the outright falsehood is yours in inventing new words in the Declaration that are not there. They did not say WHITE FREE MALES had these so called natural rights from their Creator - they said ALL MEN.

    Its bad enough that attempt to justify the actions of slave owners and denial of rights that you claim people had to begin with, but to do so by committing the fraud of inventing new language that is not there and ignoring the actual language of ALL MEN - is beyond the pale.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #256
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    more diversion

    the issue is not whether Jefferson or other founders lied in the Declaration of Independence

    the issue is not the status of slaves

    the only issue is the right that the founders intended to recognize and guarantee-a right they planned on exercising themselves

    that is the only issue
    Actually the Declaration is indeed the issue because it is the only place where your sainted Founders as an official group made a specific statement of their belief in natural rights for all men and even named some of them. Take away that and it takes away your whole line that ..... the Founders believed in natural rights.

    The other issue being why you would invent language that is not part of the statement - outright lying about what it says while ignoring the actual words which are quite clear.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #257
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    the diversion... no check that ... the outright falsehood is yours in inventing new words in the Declaration that are not there. They did not say WHITE FREE MALES had these so called natural rights from their Creator - they said ALL MEN.

    Its bad enough that attempt to justify the actions of slave owners and denial of rights that you claim people had to begin with, but to do so by committing the fraud of inventing new language that is not there and ignoring the actual language of ALL MEN - is beyond the pale.
    again the declaration of independence is not relevant

    the status of slaves is not relevant

    your feigned indignation about slavery is even less relevant

    your rant about all men is not relevant

    the only issue is what right is guaranteed and recognized in the 2A

    and all the crap you have spewed has nothing to do with that


    you refuse to answer if the founders really intended to limit their own rights

    instead you engage in diversionary nonsense about "all men"

    that is not relevant

    we are talking about the EXTENT OF THE RIGHT not who it covered in 1790, 1795, 1800, 1865 or 1900 or 2014.

    and all the diversionary nonsense you have posted has NOTHING TO DO WITH a discussion about the EXTENT of the Second Amendment

    and once we have established that the founders certainly believed in that right for themselves, your entire argument is vaporized. and the constant diversion proves that beyond any rational doubt



  8. #258
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    again the declaration of independence is not relevant

    the status of slaves is not relevant

    your feigned indignation about slavery is even less relevant

    your rant about all men is not relevant

    the only issue is what right is guaranteed and recognized in the 2A
    I see. So you just got your entire argument destroyed with me using evidence and exposing your falsehoods so all of the sudden something you have been battling for for hours is no longer relevant.

    If it were not such an obvious and blatant concession of surrender it might even be considered as funny - in a sad and rather lonely fashion.

    you refuse to answer if the founders really intended to limit their own rights
    I have answered it repeatedly and forcefully and clearly.The Founders NEVER talked about rights for only a limited group. They talked about natural rights for ALL MEN and then said they WERE CREATED EQUAL. And we have seen from the citations I produced about Jefferson that your statement that they did not consider Africans as men is a falsehood.

    So your statement that they only intended natural rights for themselves is another falsehood.

    and once we have established that the founders certainly believed in that right for themselves, your entire argument is vaporized. and the constant diversion proves that beyond any rational doubt
    And what we have established is that using the Declaration and using the words of Jefferson himself, they were NOT stating a belief in natural rights only for themselves. So your entire argument now fails right out of the gate.

    You can create all the fiction you want about Africans not being men in the Founders eyes , and you can invent all the new language you want to justify slavery, but the reality is that you made both up and have been caught doing so.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-31-14 at 01:58 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  9. #259
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Constitution of Vermont - July 8, 1777 (1)

    WHEREAS, all government ought to be instituted and supported, for the security and protection of the community, as such, and to enable the individuals who compose it, to enjoy their natural rights, and the other blessings which the Author of existence has bestowed upon man; and whenever those great ends of government are not obtained, the people have a right, by common consent, to change it, and take such measures as to them may appear necessary to promote their safety and happiness.

  10. #260
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Constitution of Vermont - July 8, 1777 (1)

    WHEREAS, all government ought to be instituted and supported, for the security and protection of the community, as such, and to enable the individuals who compose it, to enjoy their natural rights, and the other blessings which the Author of existence has bestowed upon man; and whenever those great ends of government are not obtained, the people have a right, by common consent, to change it, and take such measures as to them may appear necessary to promote their safety and happiness.
    statements of fellow true believers in the theory of natural rights does not make them exist outside of a belief system.

    It is the constitution which makes rights real.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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