View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #241
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    oh come on

    do you claim Tom Jefferson intended to DENY people like him the rights you claim they didn't believe in

    that is what you are claiming

    you argue that since he and the other founders did not include blacks in coverage of these rights, these founders actually did not believe in such rights for ANYONE

    isn't that your "no true scotsman" fallacy you constantly recite?

    just because the founders did not think blacks were entitled to natural rights DOES NOT PROVE that the founders did not want these rights for themselves

    its as stupid as saying that the founders did not intend that the founders and other white men to really have an ability to vote since slaves couldn't vote
    WOW!!!!!! So in your world, a slaver who owns other human beings, rapes other human beings, uses them for breeding other human beings to be held in a condition of slavery, punishes and even kills those other human beings but who professes belief in rights for himself is some sort of noble creature who believes in rights and the Equality of All Men and their rights as the statement says.

    That is one of the most blatantly absurd and outright ridiculous things I have ever heard anyone ever assert in ant forum or in any publication or on any broadcast ever in my 65 years on the planet.

    ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL... not just white men.... not just white men of property .... not just slave owners. ALL MEN.

    And those same ALL MEN are given rights by their Creator and among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Jefferson did not believe that lie the moment he put parchment to paper and neither did the other slave owners who were our sainted Founders.

    The real mystery is why some people still swallow it today.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #242
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    WOW!!!!!! So in your world, a slaver who owns other human beings, rapes other human beings, uses them for breeding other human beings to be held in a condition of slavery, punishes and even kills those other human beings but who professes belief in rights for himself is some sort of noble creature who believes in rights and the Equality of All Men and their rights as the statement says.

    That is one of the most blatantly absurd and outright ridiculous things I have ever heard anyone ever assert in ant forum or in any publication or on any broadcast ever in my 65 years on the planet.

    ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL... not just white men.... not just white men of property .... not just slave owners. ALL MEN.

    Ad those same ALL MEN are given rights by their Creator and among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Jefferson did not believe that lie the moment he put parchment to paper and neither did the other slave owners who were our sainted Founders.

    The real mystery is why some people still swallow it today.
    that evades my question

    try again



  3. #243
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that evades my question

    try again
    You really do not know what the word EVASION means do you Turtle. If I dealt with your absurd contention any more directly it would make Hiroshima look like a marshmallow roast by comparison.

    Lets look at your question - crush it and flush it so we do NOT have to hear this nonsense about EVASION yet again.

    do you claim Tom Jefferson intended to DENY people like him the rights you claim they didn't believe in

    that is what you are claiming
    Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

    He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

    So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

    So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

    Got that now Turtle?
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-31-14 at 01:11 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #244
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You really do not know what the word EVASION means do you Turtle. If I dealt with your absurd contention any more directly it would make Hiroshima look like a marshmallow roast by comparison.
    more evasion

    yes or no-did the founders want to limit the rights they wanted to be able to exercise?

    that is the issue-not all this diversionary nonsense



  5. #245
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    more evasion

    yes or no-did the founders want to limit the rights they wanted to be able to exercise?

    that is the issue-not all this diversionary nonsense
    Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

    Here it is again for you

    Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

    He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

    So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

    So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

    Got that now Turtle?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #246
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

    Here it is again for you

    Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

    He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

    So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

    So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

    Got that now Turtle?
    what I get is you are diverting again and not answering a simple question because it destroys this silly argument that is a specious attempt to try to pretend that the 2A didn't guarantee what we all know it did

    slaves were not considered men back then. sad but true

    but its irrelevant to the issue at hand

    the FOUNDERS CERTAINLY BELIEVED they were the MEN who were entitled to exercise natural rights



  7. #247
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Its all there for you in 243. And its beyond direct.

    Here it is again for you

    Jefferson set the bar at ALL MEN... not just the very limited audience you want to pretend he did in saying people like himself. Jefferson failed his own standard and violated his own declared universe of ALL MEN.

    He further said that ALL MEN had those rights. ALL MEN. The word ALL being EVERYONE - even including those darkies picking their cotton singing those pleasant spirituals in such bucolic contentment.

    So what Jefferson intended for himself or his fellow white men of property is totally, completely and utterly IRRELEVANT and to even assert such a thing is totally and patently absurd.

    So that is NOT what I am claiming. What I am claiming is that Jefferson made a statement and other Founders signed it and they did not believe in it and their own actions prove it.

    Got that now Turtle?
    natural rights are recognized by the constitution . The 5th and 14th amendments state ..life liberty and property

    and yes they believed in natural rights, which preexisted the constitution....which is why rights are only recognized

  8. #248
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what I get is you are diverting again and not answering a simple question because it destroys this silly argument that is a specious attempt to try to pretend that the 2A didn't guarantee what we all know it did

    slaves were not considered men back then. sad but true
    Jefferson said ALL MEN. Are are you telling me that Jefferson believed people from Africa and their children to be animals?

    And I do not think you find such a claim SAD at all since you made it up.

    the FOUNDERS CERTAINLY BELIEVED they were the MEN who were entitled to exercise natural rights
    that is a blatant falsehood as they clearly said ALL MEN.

    YOu are really reaching on this one. And you have no leg to stand on since the statement in the Declaration is crystal clear.

    Read this

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...rs-and-Slavery

    In his initial draft of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson condemned the injustice of the slave trade and, by implication, slavery, but he also blamed the presence of enslaved Africans in North America on avaricious British colonial policies. Jefferson thus acknowledged that slavery violated the natural rights of the enslaved, while at the same time he absolved Americans of any responsibility for owning slaves themselves.
    Not the lie just told us Turtle. Not by any stretch. Jefferson knew slavery was wrong and knew it violated the natural rights of the enslaved - people he considered as human beings with those so called natural rights - but he found a way to justify his own profit for himself and others and blamed others for his own moral failings.

    So your argument has been thoroughly and completely destroyed Turtle.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-31-14 at 01:26 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #249
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Jefferson said ALL MEN. Are are you telling me that Jefferson believed people from Africa and their children to be animals?

    And I do not think you find such a claim SAD at all since you made it up.



    that is a blatant falsehood as they clearly said ALL MEN.

    YOu are really reaching on this one. And you have no leg to stand on since the statement in the Declaration is crystal clear.

    Read this

    The Founding Fathers and Slavery (Founding Fathers) -- Encyclopedia Britannica
    I have asked you at least three times if you claim that the founders did NOT want to guarantee the very rights they believed applied to THEM (not blacks, not European, not martians or Klingons)

    AND YOU continue to divert and evade

    why is that? I know-its because the answer destroys your silly argument that the founders really did not intend to protect natural rights
    Last edited by TurtleDude; 10-31-14 at 01:30 AM.



  10. #250
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    Re: Proof and Facts[W:76]

    the issue is not about slaves

    the issue is not about whether natural rights "exist"

    the issue is not about whether the founders were "liars" in the Declaration of Independence

    the only issue is

    DID THE FOUNDERS intend to GUARANTEE the very RIGHTS they wanted to exercise

    the only possible answer is YES. and that is why this question has been avoided do many times by those who pretend that the 2A does not guarantee the very right the founders all said they wanted for themselves and others like them



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