View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 23 of 60 FirstFirst ... 13212223242533 ... LastLast
Results 221 to 230 of 595

Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #221
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,700

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.

    However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
    yes, that is a good point. you see the issue is not whether NR exist or not. The only issue is whether those who wrote the bill of rights

    1) believed that such things exist (YES)

    2) and sought to recognize those rights in the bill of rights (undeniably true)

    so whether they "exist" is not relevant

    what is relevant is that those who believed in NR and intended to protect and recognize them would not write a constitution or bill of rights that is statist as some claim

    we argue only that the founders intended their documents to recognize and be based on that assumption (that NR exist) and once we have established that, it precludes some of the silly revisionist interpretations that clearly are counter to the assumptions of the founders

    attacking the existence of NR is worthless and proves nothing but its a substitute for those who know that the founders so believed (which they cannot refute)



  2. #222
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.

    However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
    I have no problem with people believing in natural rights.... or the Faerie Kingdom .... or vampires .... or the Easter Bunny. It is fine with me.

    But please DO NOT tell me that the rights we have today because of the US COnstitution PRE-EXISTED before they were ever written down when they only existed in the confines of somebody's own beliefs. And not one person can freely exercise or use a right which only exists in anothers mind and does not exist in the law of the country in which they reside.

    If anyone says that natural rights pre-existed before written rights - they have a responsibility to prove it. Show me where they pre-existed and how people had the enjoyment and use of those rights before they were law.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #223
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    My take on the idea of natural rights is that they are a belief system that MAY be positive, so long as said natural rights are positive - belief in natural rights would seem to lead people to support codification of natural rights into constitutional rights, for example.


    However so far as I know there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of natural rights.
    are rights created by the constitution.....no.

    natural rights are negative law or unwritten law.

    privileges are positive law....written law

  4. #224
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yes, that is a good point. you see the issue is not whether NR exist or not. The only issue is whether those who wrote the bill of rights

    1) believed that such things exist (YES)
    You fail right out of the gate Turtle. The Founders DID NOT believe in natural rights as their statement about them in the Declaration was a blatant lie which leaves no doubt that it was merely a high fallutin pompous pontification made for the benefit of the gullible and naive who swallow such nonsense.

    Lets apply your own logic to this and see how it works for you: nobody can believe in natural rights and the equality of all people with rights given by their Creator when they themselves enslave their fellow man and deny them all the so called rights that they claim they believe in.

    It is worse than a pedophile buggering a child while making statements against child abuse at the very moment of their disgusting activities. Slavery is far more encompassing and last a hell of a lot longer.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #225
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    are rights created by the constitution.....no.

    natural rights are negative law or unwritten law.

    privileges are positive law....written law
    Still cannot answer the question I see EB.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #226
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You fail right out of the gate Turtle. The Founders DID NOT believe in natural rights as their statement about them in the Declaration was a blatant lie which leaves no doubt that it was merely a high fallutin pompous pontification made for the benefit of the gullible and naive who swallow such nonsense.
    Lets apply your own logic to this and see how it works for you: nobody can believe in natural rights and the equality of all people with rights given by their Creator when they themselves enslave their fellow man and deny them all the so called rights that they claim they believe in.

    It is worse than a pedophile buggering a child while making statements against child abuse at the very moment of their disgusting activities. Slavery is far more encompassing and last a hell of a lot longer.

    please provide proof......of the bold part of your statement

  7. #227
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    The Declaration of Independence:


    IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --




    .
    Thank you EB for providing the very proof that the Founders did not believe the nonsense they spewed about the equality of all men and natural rights coming from their Creator.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #228
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,877

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    please provide proof......of the bold part of your statement
    I just did in the very post you reproduced.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #229
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I just did in the very post you reproduced.
    no proof, just the standard haymarket escape statement

  10. #230
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thank you EB for providing the very proof that the Founders did not believe the nonsense they spewed about the equality of all men and natural rights coming from their Creator.
    well you will lose everytime to buck the founders

Page 23 of 60 FirstFirst ... 13212223242533 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •