View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #161
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    tl dr but claiming that the founders really didn't believe in the natural rights -for themselves- that they sought to protect in the Bill of Rights is pathetically silly.

    again can you find a SINGLE DOCUMENT FROM THAT era that supports your outcome based interpretations?

    iF no just say so rather than constantly spamming irrelevant and unsupported claims



  2. #162
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    tl dr but claiming that the founders really didn't believe in the natural rights -for themselves- that they sought to protect in the Bill of Rights is pathetically silly.

    again can you find a SINGLE DOCUMENT FROM THAT era that supports your outcome based interpretations?

    iF no just say so rather than constantly spamming irrelevant and unsupported claims
    When you answer my questions and provide proof for your pronouncements just as I have done - ask away. Until then Turtle - you know what it means when somebody tells you they have served it to you and the ball is now in your court awaiting your action.

    You seem to have missed my question to you: If you now concede that a belief in natural rights exists only in the belief system of the believer, can you explain how at the same time you can assert that these rights are "pre-existing" since a right which exists only as a belief cannot be exercised or used or enjoyed in reality in our world?
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  3. #163
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When you answer my questions and provide proof for your pronouncements just as I have done - ask away. Until then Turtle - you know what it means when somebody tells you they have served it to you and the ball is now in your court awaiting your action.

    You seem to have missed my question to you: If you now concede that a belief in natural rights exists only in the belief system of the believer, can you explain how at the same time you can assert that these rights are "pre-existing" since a right which exists only as a belief cannot be exercised or used or enjoyed in reality in our world?
    this is a waste of time Haymarket. You know that the founders sought to recognize a right and you don't like that fact. You know that the right they sought to recognize was one that was individual in nature and was not intended nor deemed to be subject to federal intrusions. AND this silly diversion about whether those rights actually existed (Whatever that means) is just that- a silly diversion designed to distract from the fact that you cannot win the argument. Your claims that

    1) the founders actually used words with the intent to allow infringements is beyond specious

    2) the founders were lying about the 2A an really wanted federal control of firearms has no support whatsoever

    3) or that the Sec 8 language can magically contort and mutate to say FEDERAL GUN CONTROL is something evident in those words is without any support

    the bottom line is you want federal gun control and you want to pretend its not violative of the 2nd, 9th and 10th amendments

    you have provided no proof whatsoever

    we have the language of the constitution
    the language of the second, ninth and tenth amendments
    all of the relevant contemporaneous documents

    and what do you have? imagination and actions 140 years later based on a runaway radical administration



  4. #164
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    this is a waste of time Haymarket.
    And until you stop repeating the same nonsense that has been refuted over and over and over in thread after thread after thread , sadly you are correct.

    And until you stop ignoring the questions which prove you 100% wrong and expose your beliefs as nothing more than wishful thinking, sadly you are also correct.

    And until you stop cruising down the river DENIAL and accept that the Constitution says what it says, EVEN IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT - sadly you are also correct.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #165
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And until you stop repeating the same nonsense that has been refuted over and over and over in thread after thread after thread , sadly you are correct.

    And until you stop ignoring the questions which prove you 100% wrong and expose your beliefs as nothing more than wishful thinking, sadly you are also correct.

    And until you stop cruising down the river DENIAL and accept that the Constitution says what it says, EVEN IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT - sadly you are also correct.
    you have not refuted anything and you evade and divert from actual proof

    men who believed in natural rights (all we have is your silly claim that they did not but they certainly believed in said rights for them and those like them) would not create documents that say what you pretend they say

    it is you WHO DOES NOT ACCEPT WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS

    and you have refused to show what exact language in Sec 8 says GUN CONTROL IS DELEGATED TO the federal government

    you have to pretend and make up that such language exists

    I note when challenged to show the actual words you run away



  6. #166
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by turtledude View Post
    men who believed in natural rights (all we have is your silly claim that they did not but they certainly believed in said rights for them and those like them) would not create documents that say what you pretend they say
    but they did!!!!!!

    An you have more than my "silly claim". You have their actions in real life which show their words were just pap for the gulliible naive saps who swallowed them down.


    and you have refused to show what exact language in Sec 8 says GUN CONTROL IS DELEGATED TO the federal government
    That is a lie. I provided you with five different clauses from the Constiution - and have done so several times. The sad fact that you simply prefer to pretend otherwise is all on you. I did my part.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  7. #167
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    but they did!!!!!!
    and all we have in support of that fanciful claim is your opinion

    that is a complete total and utter failure of proof



  8. #168
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Yes. Making up facts out of whole cloth is rampant on this forum.
    Ignoring facts seems to be pretty popular too.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That's weak, so incredibly weak compared to the study I posted. You looking at different time periods and different states. There are so many lurking variables that are controlled far more in the study that I posted.

  9. #169
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and all we have in support of that fanciful claim is your opinion

    that is a complete total and utter failure of proof
    The Constitution is proof. Their actions are proof. Their lies are proof.

    All of which you have been given over and over and over.

    How many times will you run from this: If you now concede that a belief in natural rights exists only in the belief system of the believer, can you explain how at the same time you can assert that these rights are "pre-existing" since a right which exists only as a belief cannot be exercised or used or enjoyed in reality in our world?

    ten times? No - its been more than that already. Perhaps ten times ten with each time screaming loudly and clearly that the answer is so obvious that you know it proves your entire argument is without one iota of foundation in reality.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #170
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    Ignoring facts seems to be pretty popular too.
    1. Linking quotes from another thread where I wasn't even talking to you? That's sad.
    2. The issue that I had with the study is totally justified.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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