View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #141
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Survey is a scientific experiment and is implicitly a scientific method. What kind of idiocy is it to claim that a survey is not a scientific experiment.

    Perhaps some knowledge of basic science would help you understand natural rights, but I'm not here to provide that to you.
    You are here to back up your claims. And so far you have not even come close. Asking your silly question to people proves nothing in the way of the existince of natural rights.

    Your so called scientific experiment begins with an assumption of faith - that there is a "right to life" that somebody has. We are alive as a result of birth. Any "right" has precious little to do with that simple physical reality. As such - you survey is tainted from its very inception. And even if it were not - no survey of a persons beliefs can tell you that natural rights exist independent from those beliefs.

    So to some extent, you are setting up a ersatz phony experiment that is a dog chasing its own tail.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-29-14 at 12:59 PM.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are here to back up your claims. And so far you have not even come close.
    According to you and your position based upon nothing more than "I shall remain ignorant!!"

    Asking your silly question to people proves nothing in the way of the existince of natural rights.
    Yes, it does. It's not my fault such is beyond your grasp. Stop complaining about not being able to understand things - I can't do anything about that!

  3. #143
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    According to you and your position based upon nothing more than "I shall remain ignorant!!"



    Yes, it does. It's not my fault such is beyond your grasp. Stop complaining about not being able to understand things - I can't do anything about that!
    You FAILED to give us a scientific method of proving that natural rights exist outside of a belief system.

    I understand your FAILURE perfectly and it is your own fault that your methodology FAILS to achieve what you claimed you could provide.

    Asking a million people what they believe does not prove the beliefs exist independently of the believer. You can ask a billion people if they believe in GOD and get a YES answer. It proves nothing aside from people believe.

    You really need to understand what the scientific method is. This will help educate you on it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
    __________________________________________________ _
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  4. #144
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You FAILED to give us a scientific method of proving that natural rights exist outside of a belief system.
    You have failed to understand that survey is a scientific experiment. I'm sorry if you don't have a grasp of basic science. I'm sure that makes understanding natural rights even more difficult. I wish you the best of luck understanding natural social objects and the scientific evidence of their existence. Good day.

  5. #145
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You have failed to understand that survey is a scientific experiment. I'm sorry if you don't have a grasp of basic science. I'm sure that makes understanding natural rights even more difficult. I wish you the best of luck understanding natural social objects and the scientific evidence of their existence. Good day.
    News bulletin for you and bit of education: one can use scientific methodology in developing and conducting a survey of opinion about what people believe so that the results are somewhat reliable. The results tell you what people believe... at least those that you surveyed if it was done properly. That is radically and totally and completely different than using the scientific method to prove that natural rights exist independently apart from anyones self imposed belief because they want to believe it.

    Your task is to prove that NATURAL RIGHTS exist outside of a belief system. And you failed to do that.

    But I am overjoyed that you did it here since it underlines the necessity of providing the proper EVIDENCE and PROOF for ones claims. Yours did the opposite.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  6. #146
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    News bulletin for you and bit of education: one can use scientific methodology in developing and conducting a survey of opinion about what people believe so that the results are somewhat reliable. The results tell you what people believe... at least those that you surveyed if it was done properly. That is radically and totally and completely different than using the scientific method to prove that natural rights exist independently apart from anyones self imposed belief because they want to believe it.

    Your task is to prove that NATURAL RIGHTS exist outside of a belief system. And you failed to do that.

    But I am overjoyed that you did it here since it underlines the necessity of providing the proper EVIDENCE and PROOF for ones claims. Yours did the opposite.
    who has claimed that natural rights exist outside a belief system. its like demanding someone prove that the catholic faith exists outside a belief system

    and its not relevant to the argument. if a bunch of Jesuits wrote a document saying the nation they founded would recognize their savior as the God of that nation, all we have to do to determine what they meant is to examine their beliefs and that would mean the Christian trinity.

    whether that exists or not in the physical world means nothing

    and when we evaluate the rights the founders wished to recognize in the 2A we look at the rights they believe existed prior to the constitutional convention



  7. #147
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    who has claimed that natural rights exist outside a belief system.
    Great. We are making progress then if you finally admit that natural rights do not exist outside of a belief system held by the believer because they have chosen to believe it.

    its like demanding someone prove that the catholic faith exists outside a belief system
    Excellent. Your first comparison is to religious faith. And that also cannot be proven to exist outside the belief system of the believer.

    and its not relevant to the argument.
    Like the famous line in WIZARD OF OZ where the Wizard chastises Dorothy - ... not so fast, not so fast. It is 100% relevant when you then attempt to take that belief which exists only in the mind and take the giant leap that the rights given to us in the Constitution "PRE EXISTED". Because they only place they could have PRE EXISTED is in the mind and not in the real or physical world so that they actually do anything. And unless a right does something - ie: people can utilize it and exercise it - ther is no so called right to be claimed for it does not for all practical purposes exist at all.

    if a bunch of Jesuits wrote a document saying the nation they founded would recognize their savior as the God of that nation, all we have to do to determine what they meant is to examine their beliefs and that would mean the Christian trinity.
    Again your comparison with religious faith only proves my point.

    whether that exists or not in the physical world means nothing
    Actually it means just the opposite because if it does not exist in the real world there is no RIGHT for people to use or exercise or enjoy. And then it does not exist for all practical purposes. I can construct a 50,000 story castle made of diamonds inhabited by the denizens of the Faerie Kingdom in my mind and it exists there. But it does not exist in the real or physical world so for all practical purposes - it does to exist.

    and when we evaluate the rights the founders wished to recognize in the 2A we look at the rights they believe existed prior to the constitutional convention
    And since those rights DID NOT EXIST in the real world - you know Turtle - the real world that you and I inhabit - they were no pre-existing rights to be considered. And we already have found out from the history of that real world that your sainted Founders really did not believe in their pronouncements of rights to begin with as they openly lied about it in the very statement of belief in natural rights that they made.

    So you really have nothing here other than your faith..... which you are entitled to just as much as I am entitled to my giant Faerie Kingdom castle.
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  8. #148
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    tl dr. what matters is those who believe in the existence of natural rights would not issue a Second Amendment that would allow all sorts of limitations on the right they wished to protect

    your only response to that is to conjure up a claim that the founders were liars (in the Declaration of Independence as slaves were not included) and thus they must have lied about protecting rights that actually protected them.



  9. #149
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    tl dr. what matters is those who believe in the existence of natural rights would not issue a Second Amendment that would allow all sorts of limitations on the right they wished to protect

    your only response to that is to conjure up a claim that the founders were liars (in the Declaration of Independence as slaves were not included) and thus they must have lied about protecting rights that actually protected them.
    I see you were unable to refute my step by step destruction of your argument in my post 147.

    1- they did not believe in natural rights

    2- they were liars as proven by their own actions which were 100% opposite of somebody who states there are natural rights

    3 - they did give the federal government powers when the responsibility of government was upon them

    You are engaging in the No True Scotsman fallacy and chasing your own tail on this which is why you get nowhere and keep coming back to the exact same spot you were in previously.

    again Turtle - every one of your arguments has been met head on and dismantled. You have nothing left except belief. And that give nobody any rights.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see you were unable to refute my step by step destruction of your argument in my post 147.

    1- they did not believe in natural rights

    2- they were liars as proven by their own actions which were 100% opposite of somebody who states there are natural rights

    3 - they did give the federal government powers when the responsibility of government was upon them

    You are engaging in the No True Scotsman fallacy and chasing your own tail on this which is why you get nowhere and keep coming back to the exact same spot you were in previously.

    again Turtle - every one of your arguments has been met head on and dismantled. You have nothing left except belief. And that give nobody any rights.
    your alleged destruction of any argument of mine is even less concrete than the natural rights you spend so much time complaining about

    you are relegated to claiming that the founders really didn't want to recognize a right of free men to be armed because you claim they lied by not including slaves in the Declaration of independence

    other than your speculation which makes no sense (why would the founders denigrate their own rights), do you have any evidence that your silly interpretation of the bill of rights is correct?



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