View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #121
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My proof that they lied is in the very words that Jefferson wrote about natural rights in the Declaration of Independence and which was signed by many other Founders who stood up tall and signed a document which contained statemenst of obvious falsehood. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE as you claim they do Turtle.

    They were slave owners who professed belief in equality of man and natural rights which they themselves were violating the very second they wrote and signed those very words.

    You asked me the other day why I compared it to pedophiles buggering children which making statements against child abuse. Come to think of it, what Jefferson and the Founders did was much much worse. Holding human beings in slavery - hundreds of them in many of their cases - is much worse than a single disgusting revolting act of pedophilia - and thats saying something.

    Think about it Turtle. I do NOT have to go to some letter Jefferson wrote 20 years later to show the lie. Its right there in the same sentence with his phony belief in your phony natural rights.

    Q: So why do you chose to believe the hype and the lie?

    A: Because to admit it leaves you with nothing and destroys your case.

    rejected as your opinion which has no basis of support. tell us how this actually proves your claim that these same founders actually wanted a centralized government to have the power to disarm them

    you might have a slight bit of veracity in claiming these founders didn't want slaves or minorities to have the same rights they did but you cannot make the jump to the completely idiotic assertion that these founders did not want themselves to have the very rights they claimed to cherish

    thus, your argument completely fails no matter how large you write it

    and I thought you wanted to stop derailing this thread? lets stick to proof such as the beliefs of an author is a decent way of proving what their writings actually meant



  2. #122
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    true, and watching the contortions they go through in order to "prove" something that is not relevant is funny

    first they tried to PROVE that natural rights do not exist which is worthless to any discussion other than a philosophic exercise as to what it means for a belief to exist

    after they were bludgeoned with the fact that all that matters is that the founders believed in natural rights and thus, the words they wrote would recognize those rights, the statists shifted to claiming we cannot believe the founders since they were LYING

    pathetic attempt to prove that the founders actually wanted an all powerful federal government
    It's really sick to claim the founders were liars and scam artists and then claim to have the "true" interpretation of the Constitution based on the assumption that it's all BS anyway.

    I just can't even get my head around how ****ed up a perspective must be to arrive at such contortions to push ones own narrative.

    It's like: "Jesus was a liar and a scam. Let me tell you the REAL meaning of the Bible!" Sick, culty, warped garbage. How horrible it would be to have my own head filled with such vomit.

  3. #123
    Sage

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The level of statism advocated in the rejection of natural rights is frightening.
    How so? Rejecting a belief which does not exist outside of the belief system of the believer is merely honest.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's really sick to claim the founders were liars and scam artists and then claim to have the "true" interpretation of the Constitution based on the assumption that it's all BS anyway.

    I just can't even get my head around how ****ed up a perspective must be to arrive at such contortions to push ones own narrative.

    It's like: "Jesus was a liar and a scam. Let me tell you the REAL meaning of the Bible!" Sick stuff.
    Actually - its not "like" anything. It merely takes the statement of the Founders in the Declaration and shows how it was a blatant lie the moment it was written. Put aside your emotions and it is very easy to see.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #125
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How so? Rejecting a belief which does not exist outside of the belief system of the believer is merely honest.
    I don't see why you think I'm obligated to explain it to you. Your position is stupid garbage and everyone can see that. Continue to object all you like, but your position has been laid out and charred.

  6. #126
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    rejected as your opinion which has no basis of support.
    Okay Turtle - lets do it your way. Lets take you by the hand and lead you step by small step down the path to enlightenment.

    Did the Founders as a group issue a statement of belief in natural rights in the Declaration of Independence?

    lets stick to proof such as the beliefs of an author is a decent way of proving what their writings actually meant
    When a statement of an authors beliefs runs totally opposite to the actual actions and behaviors of the same author - the beliefs are merely self serving BS and only the gullible and naive would put any store in them.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-29-14 at 11:55 AM.
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  7. #127
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't see why you think I'm obligated to explain it to you.
    You are simply unable to do so.

    Continue to object all you like, but your position has been laid out and charred.
    I call your bluff on that claim of fact. Simply produce the post where my position was "laid out and charred". Lets see it.

    Of course, since that never happened - you will not do so.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #128
    global liberation

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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually - its not "like" anything. It merely takes the statement of the Founders in the Declaration and shows how it was a blatant lie the moment it was written. Put aside your emotions and it is very easy to see.
    Yes, the person with the personal interpretation of the Constitution based on their nutbag belief that natural rights are a scam will tell me to put aside my emotions. Laughable!

    When you're done re-interpreting the Constitution according to your personal conspiracy theory, let us know.

  9. #129
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yes, the person with the personal interpretation of the Constitution based on their nutbag belief that natural rights are a scam will tell me to put aside my emotions. Laughable!

    When you're done re-interpreting the Constitution according to your personal conspiracy theory, let us know.
    I see you failed to meet my challenge with anything but raw vitriol. As expected.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #130
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I see you failed to meet my challenge with anything but raw vitriol. As expected.
    actually that is not true
    your entire argument is based on a specious claim that since the founders (in your opinion) lied (when they didn't include slaves in their definition of those who are entitled to freedom even though that is not a lie) as to some things, they must have lied about others and therefore that gives you the opportunity to make up what they really intended in the bill of rights

    its a complete failure of proof.



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