View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
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  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #111
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You were done before it ever started as you are merely defending a personal belief which does not exist outside of your own belief or the belief systems of others.

    And that provides no RIGHTS for anybody.
    one way to prove the intent of words that dishonest entities claim say something else is to establish the belief system of the people who wrote the words. In the case of the 2A, the men who wrote it believed in natural rights and the bill of rights was a compromise between the federalists and the anti federalists to recognize and solidify the guarantee of natural rights some claim was already evident in the main body of the Constitution.

    that pretty well destroys outcome based attempts to pretend the founders said something else



  2. #112
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    one way to prove the intent of words that dishonest entities claim say something else is to establish the belief system of the people who wrote the words. In the case of the ......
    ... Founders, they openly lied about their phony statements of believing in natural rights. They provided high fallutin' pompous pontifications for the gullible and naive who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.... and still are doing so today despite a mountain of evidence that cannot be overcome.

    So the question then becomes Turtle - why do you a man of education and experience - but into the phony hype that we know was false on its face the minute quill was placed to parchment and the lies written?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #113
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    ... Founders, they openly lied about their phony statements of believing in natural rights. They provided high fallutin' pompous pontifications for the gullible and naive who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.... and still are doing so today despite a mountain of evidence that cannot be overcome.

    So the question then becomes Turtle - why do you a man of education and experience - but into the phony hype that we know was false on its face the minute quill was placed to parchment and the lies written?
    Natural rights can be proven via simple experiment. That the concept is beyond your understanding is hardly an indictment of the founders. I mean really, who are you to question their intelligence?

  4. #114
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Natural rights can be proven via simple experiment. That the concept is beyond your understanding is hardly an indictment of the founders. I mean really, who are you to question their intelligence?
    Intelligence? Where did I question that? Please quote me.
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  5. #115
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    ... Founders, they openly lied about their phony statements of believing in natural rights. They provided high fallutin' pompous pontifications for the gullible and naive who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.... and still are doing so today despite a mountain of evidence that cannot be overcome.

    So the question then becomes Turtle - why do you a man of education and experience - but into the phony hype that we know was false on its face the minute quill was placed to parchment and the lies written?
    Lets see- I support my interpretation of the founders' words by noting that every available document relevant to the matter and contemporaneous to the drafting of the Bill of Rights supports my interpretation

    Your "proof"--they lied, they intended their words to mean the exact opposite of what they publicly stated.

    desperation to salvage a completely bogus argument is not "proof of facts"



  6. #116
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Intelligence? Where did I question that? Please quote me.
    Well, according to you the entire concept of natural rights is a scam. For that to be the case, the founders would have to all be morons. As if they needed Haymarket at the convention to point out: "but rights can be violated!" and they would have all been like "ok, he's correct, there's no such thing as natural rights".

    But guess what? Inalienable does not equal inviolable and the failure is on your part to understand the concept.

  7. #117
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Well, according to you the entire concept of natural rights is a scam. For that to be the case, the founders would have to all be morons. As if they needed Haymarket at the convention to point out: "but rights can be violated!" and they would have all been like "ok, he's correct, there's no such thing as natural rights".

    But guess what? Inalienable does not equal inviolable and the failure is on your part to understand the concept.
    most of those who spend the most time arguing against natural rights are really railing against the unmistakeable meaning of the 2A because they know its real intent was to prevent the blatant violations of our rights by the government they hope has more and more power



  8. #118
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    most of those who spend the most time arguing against natural rights are really railing against the unmistakeable meaning of the 2A because they know its real intent was to prevent the blatant violations of our rights by the government they hope has more and more power
    The level of statism advocated in the rejection of natural rights is frightening.

  9. #119
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Lets see- I support my interpretation of the founders' words by noting that every available document relevant to the matter and contemporaneous to the drafting of the Bill of Rights supports my interpretation

    Your "proof"--they lied, they intended their words to mean the exact opposite of what they publicly stated.

    desperation to salvage a completely bogus argument is not "proof of facts"
    My proof that they lied is in the very words that Jefferson wrote about natural rights in the Declaration of Independence and which was signed by many other Founders who stood up tall and signed a document which contained statemenst of obvious falsehood.



    The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

    IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,



    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

    There it is. Your statement of belief in natural rights that was a lie the moment is was placed on parchment.


    THEY DID NOT BELIEVE as you claim they do Turtle.

    They were slave owners who professed belief in equality of man and natural rights which they themselves were violating the very second they wrote and signed those very words.

    You asked me the other day why I compared it to pedophiles buggering children which making statements against child abuse. Come to think of it, what Jefferson and the Founders did was much much worse. Holding human beings in slavery - hundreds of them in many of their cases - is much worse than a single disgusting revolting act of pedophilia - and thats saying something.

    Think about it Turtle. I do NOT have to go to some letter Jefferson wrote 20 years later to show the lie. Its right there in the same sentence with his phony belief in your phony natural rights.

    Q: So why do you chose to believe the hype and the lie?

    A: Because to admit it leaves you with nothing and destroys your case.

    Last edited by haymarket; 10-29-14 at 11:41 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  10. #120
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The level of statism advocated in the rejection of natural rights is frightening.
    true, and watching the contortions they go through in order to "prove" something that is not relevant is funny

    first they tried to PROVE that natural rights do not exist which is worthless to any discussion other than a philosophic exercise as to what it means for a belief to exist

    after they were bludgeoned with the fact that all that matters is that the founders believed in natural rights and thus, the words they wrote would recognize those rights, the statists shifted to claiming we cannot believe the founders since they were LYING

    pathetic attempt to prove that the founders actually wanted an all powerful federal government



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