View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #101
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but the issue is what the founders intended and even the most hard core statists have to concede that the commerce clause was never intended for that purpose

    no one who pushes gun control has tried to justify it on those other clauses

    and lets see if you can answer an easy question

    Do you believe the founders wrote the commerce clause for the purpose of

    1) delegating gun control to the federal government

    2) giving the federal government the power to tell a farmer if he can grow wheat for his own use
    I have no idea if they specifically had guns or plows or TV sets or radios or push up bras or sex toys or bed frames or writing desks or computers or table lamps or beets or beef or wheat or buckled shoes in mind when they wrote those clauses. And neither does you or anybody else. They left it broad and vague to include all manner of things under the sun that can be bought and sold from other nations and from one state to the other. And like it or not - that includes guns.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the real importance of Natural rights is this

    WOULD SOMEONE who believed in natural rights and sought to recognize them in the bill of rights, author or support an amendment that didn't actually guarantee the very right they publicly stated they wanted to protect?
    And why do you insist on believing this nonsense about BELIEFS when anyone not a gullible naive novice totally virginal and unschooled and unwise in the ways of politics can see that the statement was an obvious lie not even believed when Jefferson wrote it and the Founders signed it?

    And we know that the militia clauses in Article I Section 8 give Congress control over firearms because of the reality that the Second Amendment came a couple of years AFTER the actual Constitution and the writers of it included the very specific language about the militia in the Amendment. If there was no first half of it - you might have a claim but since the Amendment was written to avoid a standing army and specifically mentions the militia by name and by purpose - there can be no doubt that the Founders wanted Congress to have regulatory power in this area. No doubt at all.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-28-14 at 06:42 PM.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #103
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And why do you insist on believing this nonsense about BELIEFS when anyone not a gullible naive novice totally virginal and unschooled and unwise in the ways of politics can see that the statement was an obvious lie not even believed when Jefferson wrote it and the Founders signed it?

    And we know that the militia clauses in Article I Section 8 give Congress control over firearms because of the reality that the Second Amendment came a couple of years AFTER the actual Constitution and the writers of it included the very specific language about the militia in the Amendment. If there was no first half of it - you might have a claim but since the Amendment was written to avoid a standing army and specifically mentions the militia by name and by purpose - there can be no doubt that the Founders wanted Congress to have regulatory power in this area. No doubt at all.
    but the problem is Haymarket you CANNOT POINT TO A SINGLE DOCUMENT that supports your claim

    and I DENY that the militia clause does what you claim. AND NO COURT OF RECORD HAS EVER AGREED WITH YOU. NO LEGAL SCHOLAR HAS EVER CLAIMED that the militia clause gives congress the power to ban or restrict what arms private citizens can own



  4. #104
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but the problem is Haymarket you CANNOT POINT TO A SINGLE DOCUMENT that supports your claim
    The Declaration of Independence supports my claim that the Founders lied about their statement of a belief in natural rights.

    The Constitution supports my claim about the powers of the Congress regarding firearms.

    and I DENY that the militia clause does what you claim. AND NO COURT OF RECORD HAS EVER AGREED WITH YOU. NO LEGAL SCHOLAR HAS EVER CLAIMED that the militia clause gives congress the power to ban or restrict what arms private citizens can own
    I can find not one single Court case where the Court rejected the basic idea.

    Can you?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #105
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The Declaration of Independence supports my claim that the Founders lied about their statement of a belief in natural rights.

    The Constitution supports my claim about the powers of the Congress regarding firearms.
    false!

  6. #106
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The Declaration of Independence supports my claim that the Founders lied about their statement of a belief in natural rights.

    The Constitution supports my claim about the powers of the Congress regarding firearms.



    I can find not one single Court case where the Court rejected the basic idea.

    Can you?
    your posts just make crap up. there is nothing in the constitution that even remotely talks about a federal power to control firearms.

    can you find any court case or legislator or bill that was based on the militia clause and was about federal gun control?

    no you cannot

    this is the failure of proof we talk about

    you make an unsupported assertion that has no backing in anything the founders said and pretend that the founders intended that the militia clause allows gun control

    it doesn't

    its something you made up



  7. #107
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    false!
    Where is your argument with supporting evidence?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #108
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your posts just make crap up. there is nothing in the constitution that even remotely talks about a federal power to control firearms.
    I did NOT MAKE UP the US Constitution.

    I did not MAKE UP any of the five clauses which could be used to explain this power given to Congress.

    Turtle - you and I have pretty much taken over this thread. Can we either drop this continual line of argument and let it get back to the topic so that others can participate?
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-29-14 at 08:05 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #109
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I did NOT MAKE UP the US Constitution.

    I did not MAKE UP any of the five clauses which could be used to explain this power given to Congress.

    Turtle - you and I have pretty much taken over this thread. Can we either drop this continual line of argument and let it get back to the topic so that others can participate?
    nope what you have done is made up meanings not in any of those clauses,

    LOOK, here is the problem

    IF YOU CLAIM SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED actually allows INFRINGEMENTS, its really silly to then turn around and pretend clauses that say nothing about gun control powers allows it.

    Proof of claims should require a consistency interpretation. With that I am done on this side issue here



  10. #110
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    nope what you have done is made up meanings not in any of those clauses,

    LOOK, here is the problem

    IF YOU CLAIM SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED actually allows INFRINGEMENTS, its really silly to then turn around and pretend clauses that say nothing about gun control powers allows it.

    Proof of claims should require a consistency interpretation. With that I am done on this side issue here
    You were done before it ever started as you are merely defending a personal belief which does not exist outside of your own belief or the belief systems of others.

    And that provides no RIGHTS for anybody.

    The topic of this thread is EVIDENCE. And you have done a tremendous job of illustrating the very problem the OP speaks to - somebody who simply cannot or will not provide verifiable evidence for their claims and prefers to wallow in beliefs and personal pontifications.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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