View Poll Results: Is it appropriate to demand proof or facts on Debate Politics?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. We need the facts to make for fair discussion.

    41 61.19%
  • Yes. Some people make stuff up.

    24 35.82%
  • No. Demanding proof is a cop out or scare tactic.

    4 5.97%
  • No. Proof is for trials in court and irrelavent for debates.

    1 1.49%
  • Yes. Other.

    22 32.84%
  • No. Other.

    4 5.97%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Proof and Facts[W:76"283]

  1. #91
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    shouldn't we expect you to interpret those Sec 89 clauses the same way you interpret the 2A
    and I do.

    i.e. using what the EXACT language says?
    THE CONGRESS SHALL HAVE POWER (that is a direct assignment of power to the federal government)

    Clauses 1 - to provide for the general welfare
    clause 3 - to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the states (buying and selling guns is indeed commerce)
    clauses 15 & 16 - regulating the militia - which is the purpose of the Second Amendment in the first place
    clause 18 - necessary and proper clause to carry out the other clauses and powers


    there is no language in any part of article 1 sec. 8 that even hints at gun control being a delegated power
    Not at all true as you have been told time after time after time but prefer to live in denial since to do otherwise would destroy your belief system and leave you without a case.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  2. #92
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and I do.



    THE CONGRESS SHALL HAVE POWER (that is a direct assignment of power to the federal government)

    Clauses 1 - to provide for the general welfare
    clause 3 - to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the states (buying and selling guns is indeed commerce)
    clauses 15 & 16 - regulating the militia - which is the purpose of the Second Amendment in the first place
    clause 18 - necessary and proper clause to carry out the other clauses and powers




    Not at all true as you have been told time after time after time but prefer to live in denial since to do otherwise would destroy your belief system and leave you without a case.
    the commerce clause's exact language only talks about commerce with other nations, AMONG the states and indian tribes-nothing about retail sales among individuals within the same state-fail

    your claim about the general welfare is specious-you claim its a carte blanche for anything the government wants-fail

    regulating the militia does not have ANYTHING TO DO with either state militias or private citizens

    clause 18=only for those items where government has the specific power not in other areas

    complete fail



  3. #93
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I note that Haymarket has been asked dozens of times to cite the actual language he claims delegates this power and since none of those clauses actually says anything even remotely connected to gun control-to show us why his interpretation of those words is sensible

    so there is a complete failure of proof there
    Like you don't have a copy of the Constitution Turtle!?!?!?!?!?

    Like you cannot access it online?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Now who is trying to kid who here!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Again - Article I , Section 8, clauses 1, 3, 15, 16, and 18.

    Is there some reason why you cannot locate those?
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  4. #94
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the commerce clause's exact language only talks about commerce with other nations, AMONG the states and indian tribes-nothing about retail sales among individuals within the same state-fail
    The FAILURE is totally yours as the US Supreme Court, the Congress of the United States and numerous Presidents say YOU ARE WRONG. Sure, you have your own extremist belief - but its still wrong in our real USA.


    your claim about the general welfare is specious-you claim its a carte blanche for anything the government wants-fail
    That is a direct falsehood on your part. Simply quote me where I said that. But you cannot and you will not.

    regulating the militia does not have ANYTHING TO DO with either state militias or private citizens
    And just who do you think is going to be in the militia? Chipmunks? Trees? Werewolves and vampires? Its going to be private citizens who live in the various states. And that is the purpose of the Amendment in the first place. So of course Congress was intended by the Founders to regulate firearms as they are a key component to the militia.

    clause 18=only for those items where government has the specific power not in other areas
    It is being used with the specific powers as I laid out for you in plain english.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-28-14 at 05:54 PM.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #95
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Like you don't have a copy of the Constitution Turtle!?!?!?!?!?

    Like you cannot access it online?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Now who is trying to kid who here!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Again - Article I , Section 8, clauses 1, 3, 15, 16, and 18.

    Is there some reason why you cannot locate those?
    since none of those clauses even hint at gun control, the duty is on you to explain why it was inferred in a document that established a government of specific and limited powers

    what part of the commerce clause talks about individual purchases or use when the smallest unit discussed is a STATE

    what part of the militia clause applies to anyone not in federal service

    you are making stuff up



  6. #96
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The FAILURE is totally yours as the US Supreme Court, the Congress of the United States and numerous Presidents say YOU ARE WRONG. Sure, you have your own extremist belief - but its still wrong in our real USA.




    That is a direct falsehood on your part. Simply quote me where I said that. But you cannot and you will not.
    Oh I have admitted that the court under FDR ignored the 10th amendment and violated it

    but guess what-not even the most dishonest gun banners in politics have ever agreed with your comments as to anything BUT the commerce clause so you are wrong when you claim all those other clauses support gun control



  7. #97
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Oh I have admitted that the court under FDR ignored the 10th amendment and violated it
    So what? Your personal opinion on that issue is worthless compared to the long standing law of the land.

    But tell me Turtle - a big part of your case is the BELIEFS OF THE FOUNDERS. But you do not seem like a gullible or naive person who would allow themselves to be played for a sucker or a sap or for just plain ignorant of the ways of politicians. But in this case, you place all your faith and hope on BELIEFS OF THE FOUNDERS when anybody can see they did not even believe their own hype and lied about in IN TTHE VERY SAME SENTENCE where they stated your sacred so called "beliefs"?

    Why do you believe the lies Turtle? Is it because to admit otherwise shows you have nothing left?

    but guess what-not even the most dishonest gun banners in politics have ever agreed with your comments as to anything BUT the commerce clause so you are wrong when you claim all those other clauses support gun control
    You make the fatal error of confusing me with somebody who cares about what others DO NOT SAY.

    History is against you.

    The law is against you.

    The Court is against you.

    You got nothing.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-28-14 at 06:00 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #98
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Really?!?!?!? Then why can't people provide verifiable evidence for a claim that "pre-existing natural rights" actually existed before the Constitution or state constitutions anywhere outside of a self imposed belief?
    That's the thread that I was trying to remember. Thank you very much. I said that I believed in natural rights, and I fully admitted that it was just my humble opinion and I wasn't claiming that it was a fact. I even admitted that I had no proof, but that didn't stop people from demanding that I provide proof. It went on for pages and pages. It was ******* hilarious.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  9. #99
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So what? Your personal opinion on that issue is worthless compared to the long standing law of the land.
    but the issue is what the founders intended and even the most hard core statists have to concede that the commerce clause was never intended for that purpose

    no one who pushes gun control has tried to justify it on those other clauses

    and lets see if you can answer an easy question

    Do you believe the founders wrote the commerce clause for the purpose of

    1) delegating gun control to the federal government

    2) giving the federal government the power to tell a farmer if he can grow wheat for his own use



  10. #100
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    Re: Proof and Facts

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    That's the thread that I was trying to remember. Thank you very much. I said that I believed in natural rights, and I fully admitted that it was just my humble opinion and I wasn't claiming that it was a fact. I even admitted that I had no proof, but that didn't stop people from demanding that I provide proof. It went on for pages and pages. It was ******* hilarious.
    the real importance of Natural rights is this

    WOULD SOMEONE who believed in natural rights and sought to recognize them in the bill of rights, author or support an amendment that didn't actually guarantee the very right they publicly stated they wanted to protect?



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