View Poll Results: Do Governments Restrict Freedom or Provide It?

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  • I lean right and govt restricts freedom.

    23 58.97%
  • I lean left and govt restricts freedom.

    11 28.21%
  • I lean right and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    3 7.69%
  • I lean left and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    0 0%
  • I am not American and govt restricts freedom.

    0 0%
  • I am not American and govt does NOT restrict freedom.

    2 5.13%
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Thread: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

  1. #141
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Or that monopolies dont always imply corruption or lack of choice, I recently watched a convincing Tom Woods speech...
    Holy crap, that video is an hour long. I'll have to watch that later. Anyway, even in the case where a monopoly was created through fair trade it would still need the government to control incoming competition into the market place or else the business would never be able to grow anywhere near that large.

  2. #142
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So... it's both.
    How can a govt protect freedom except by restriction and ultimately force? Can you give me some examples?

  3. #143
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Holy crap, that video is an hour long. I'll have to watch that later. Anyway, even in the case where a monopoly was created through fair trade it would still need the government to control incoming competition into the market place or else the business would never be able to grow anywhere near that large.
    Ha yeah its lengthy but Woods is quite entertaining, I usually just put his stuff in audio format or listen to it while im driving or playing videogames. I totally agree about monopolies, its crony capitalism, but thats only one argument I hear against them.

  4. #144
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    How can a govt protect freedom except by restriction and ultimately force? Can you give me some examples?
    No, that's how. But the result of that force is each of us enjoying more freedom than we would have otherwise. There is no magical perfect freedom. People come together and form governments to protect themselves and others. You make agreements, but when someone breaks those agreements, you need force. The idea of a forceless world is nonsense.

    Let me ask you this, what besides force can protect your right to a fair trial when accused of a crime? Obviously, even without a government there to conduct the courts, someone will accuse someone else of stealing something. What, besides a civilized government, and the force it wields, makes this story end with an honest and fair trial and not a lynch mob?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #145
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue. ... To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under the pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonoured. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality. -- Proudhon
    "Oh no no no, you got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. ” -- Sheriff Chris Mannix

  6. #146
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No, that's how. But the result of that force is each of us enjoying more freedom than we would have otherwise. There is no magical perfect freedom. People come together and form governments to protect themselves and others. You make agreements, but when someone breaks those agreements, you need force. The idea of a forceless world is nonsense.
    So we agree that the govt can only restrict. We may vary on what allowances to restrict are appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Let me ask you this, what besides force can protect your right to a fair trial when accused of a crime? Obviously, even without a government there to conduct the courts, someone will accuse someone else of stealing something. What, besides a civilized government, and the force it wields, makes this story end with an honest and fair trial and not a lynch mob?
    I dont see how this relates, im not arguing that there are legitimate rights that should be protected, but rather that the only way the govt can DO that is by restriction.

  7. #147
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue. ... To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under the pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonoured. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality. -- Proudhon
    I like the quote except for the use of the word morality. Morality is determined by the individual, not a system, and govts are by definition not people.

  8. #148
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Cool, send me your deed and be out by the end of the month. Lets put your flawed notions to test.
    I have no deed. I have no land.

    Anyway, I'm ok with homesteading and personal property. Just not private property. There is a difference you know.

  9. #149
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post

    Although the definition of freedom has different meanings to different people, I believe there is an ideological divide here between the American left and right.

    Personally, I see govts as restrictive by nature (govt passes laws, laws are inherently limiting) and that the overall net effect is less freedom. I live in a big govt state and its highly restrictive in nearly every way.

    The American left might argue that laws deliver freedom to those who "need" it, however I'd counter with the fact that freedom is a natural right-thats my view.

    So answer the poll, and I will leave an option for non-Americans. If you consider yourself a centrist/moderate/libertarian/enigma etc pick the side to which you most closely lean, or use your freedom to not vote or start your own poll.

    Edit-I did not click the "make poll" option so I will leave the choices below-if a mod would be kind enough to add these options, or allow me to that would be appreciated.

    I lean right and govt restricts freedom.
    I lean left and govt restricts freedom.
    I lean right and govt does NOT restrict freedom.
    I lean left and govt does NOT restrict freedom.
    I am not American and govt restricts freedom.
    I am not American and govt does NOT restrict freedom.
    No offense, but the poll still tries to pigeon-hole people into predetermined groups that they may or may not be a party, hence the results will still be inaccurate. Nobody is going to remember that some of the respondents tried to "pick the closest lean". No, they're just going to read the results. But the question is good and worthy of discussion.

    Anyway, addressing the question: A little of both. For the most part, government is restrictive, be definition, I think. Most people wouldn't advocate "anything goes", so by admitting that government is restrictive isn't wholly a bad thing. But, it can be a defender of rights, too.

    I've never bought into the concept of "natural rights", at least as a practical real-world concept. Yes, there are things that people should enjoy as rights no matter what, but that's only in theory, not reality. Reality is that somebody and/or something has to defend those rights, or else they simply don't exist in the real world. That somebody may be one self and/or the government, but they still have to be defended... or taken, if you will, from people who want to deny them to you..
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #150
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    Re: Do governments restrict freedom or provide it?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    I wasn't asking you for examples of mediation. Please see my question again.
    Your question was kinda unclear, I was trying to answer what I figured you were asking. Feel free to restate it for me.

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