• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marriage?

Is SS Marriage a Reason for the decline.


  • Total voters
    67
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Heterosexual marriage is currently in decline, do you believe homosexual marriage is one of the reasons for that decline?

Yes
No
Other

What SSM does do, is pose the question of "Why?". And there is no really persuasive reason to answer "Yes!", when you start thinking about it. It creates all sorts of incalculable dependencies that can be ruinous, if you are unlucky. If you are lucky it is great, but most marriages are not as lengthy as tradition would demand.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

If more than zero gay people get married, that results in more married couples.

The original claim was that it would "Stem The Tide" of the loss of marriages by gay couples getting married. If anything, the evidence seems to suggest that it will increase our portion of non-married and divorced marriagable couples.

Would you like to take a look to see (from a raw perspective) if adopting homosexual marriage is indeed correlated with a reduction in the portion of the overall populace who is married, as we have seen in this country?
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

What SSM does do, is pose the question of "Why?". And there is no really persuasive reason to answer "Yes!", when you start thinking about it. It creates all sorts of incalculable dependencies that can be ruinous, if you are unlucky. If you are lucky it is great, but most marriages are not as lengthy as tradition would demand.

This is simply not true in so many ways.

The only answer to "why?" needed here is that the only union that grants the distinct relationship of "spouses" is marriage. This means that same sex couples are being prevented from entering into this legal relationship based on their relative sexes/genders. That is the only reason why.

And there are no more "dependencies" that you can prove from same sex couples marrying than come from opposite sex couples getting married.

Tradition at one time only demanded marriages to last a few years. Since then, the length of marriages has been dependent on time, place, culture, and individual peoples. Even here in the US, people would simply leave their spouses behind if they didn't feel like being married any longer but couldn't get a divorce. Plus, tradition is not mandatory, nor should it be.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

This is simply not true in so many ways.

The only answer to "why?" needed here is that the only union that grants the distinct relationship of "spouses" is marriage. This means that same sex couples are being prevented from entering into this legal relationship based on their relative sexes/genders. That is the only reason why.

And there are no more "dependencies" that you can prove from same sex couples marrying than come from opposite sex couples getting married.

Tradition at one time only demanded marriages to last a few years. Since then, the length of marriages has been dependent on time, place, culture, and individual peoples. Even here in the US, people would simply leave their spouses behind if they didn't feel like being married any longer but couldn't get a divorce. Plus, tradition is not mandatory, nor should it be.

What we need is a law requiring men to become pregnant in order to comply with women's right to be equal.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

What we need is a law requiring men to become pregnant in order to comply with women's right to be equal.

Nonsense. That is not what legal equality is about. It is about the laws treating people equally, not nature. Nothing in marriage legally requires pregnancy for either men or women.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

The original claim was that it would "Stem The Tide" of the loss of marriages by gay couples getting married. If anything, the evidence seems to suggest that it will increase our portion of non-married and divorced marriagable couples.

Would you like to take a look to see (from a raw perspective) if adopting homosexual marriage is indeed correlated with a reduction in the portion of the overall populace who is married, as we have seen in this country?

No, because gay couples aren't married before same-sex marriage becomes legal. So the percentage of married gay couples starts at zero percent and goes to more than zero percent.

This also increases the percentage of the total population that is married. It was (STRAIGHT_MARRIAGE_COUPLES) + 0. Now it will be (STRAIGHT_MARRIAGE_COUPLES) + (GAY_MARRIAGE_COUPLES)

Although I would point out that the entire discussion is a little silly. Whether or not same-sex marriage has any impact on marriage or divorce rates isn't relevant. Freedom to make those decisions is.
 
Last edited:
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Nonsense. That is not what legal equality is about. It is about the laws treating people equally, not nature. Nothing in marriage legally requires pregnancy for either men or women.

Treating two naturally unequal people as were they equals is frequently stupid and often grossly unfair. Think of a handicap.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Treating two naturally unequal people as were they equals is frequently stupid and often grossly unfair. Think of a handicap.

There is nothing unequal about the genders when it comes to marriage and being spouses. Spouses under our laws are treated the same no matter their sexes/genders, or should be. Any differences in treatment would be minor at best (if they exist) and would not have any impact on a person's ability to be able to be a spouse legally to another person of the same sex.

Your argument fails because it is trying to make generalizations and is unable to show how spouses under the law are treated differently in a significant way that precludes two people of the same sex from being legally considered spouses.
 
Last edited:
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

No, because gay couples aren't married before same-sex marriage becomes legal. So the percentage of married gay couples starts at zero percent and goes to more than zero percent.

This also increases the percentage of the total population that is married. It was (STRAIGHT_MARRIAGE_COUPLES) + 0. Now it will be (STRAIGHT_MARRIAGE_COUPLES) + (GAY_MARRIAGE_COUPLES)

Although I would point out that the entire discussion is a little silly. Whether or not same-sex marriage has any impact on marriage or divorce rates isn't relevant. Freedom to make those decisions is.

Observe this claim that you originally responded to:

SSM is a symptom of the same root social issues that have also caused our increasing inability to form and sustain successful marriages

If, in fact, I am correct and SSM is indeed a symptom of the same root issues that have also caused our increasing inability to form and sustain successful marriages, then we will see adoption of SSM correlate with reductions in heterosexual marriage and reductions in marriage overall. The adoption of SSM does not, then, signify a "stemming of the tide" (as you have suggested), but rather an continued acceleration along a glide path of marriage failure across society.

If your argument basically boils down to "If you discount all the bad results, then the results are great!", then all you have done is predetermined your result by perverse input selection.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

There is nothing unequal about the genders when it comes to marriage and being spouses. Spouses under our laws are treated the same no matter their sexes/genders, or should be. Any differences in treatment would be minor at best (if they exist) and would not have any impact on a person's ability to be able to be a spouse legally to another person of the same sex.

Your argument fails because it is trying to make generalizations and is unable to show how spouses under the law are treated differently in a significant way that precludes two people of the same sex from being legally considered spouses.

I cannot become pregnant like a woman can. That is unequal and no law can make us equal. Of course, one can blow hot air and claim equality. But only the stupid believe it.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

I cannot become pregnant like a woman can. That is unequal and no law can make us equal. Of course, one can blow hot air and claim equality. But only the stupid believe it.

That isn't because of the laws though, but because of nature. No law is preventing you from becoming pregnant.

Marriage however is part of the laws. And no marriage laws require either spouse in a marriage to become pregnant. That is the difference. You have yet to show how the law is treating you unequally somehow or how the laws of marriage require that spouses be of two different sexes due to how those laws function, not just because some people want the two people to be of two different sexes.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

You didn't try at all to explain just where you think what I said about the point of constitutional law I was discussing is inaccurate. In fact you can't, and your condescending remark is a lame, transparent attempt to hide that.

What a shame. You're not going to be any fun. Read post 89. It'll answer all of your questions. Likewise, the court just refused to review the circuit court decisions, many of which did discuss higher levels of scrutiny. According to Deuce, some even applied those higher levels. Those are now the binding precedents. And while you're correct that Romer and Windsor didn't apply higher levels of scrutiny, Lawrence did. It applied a level that sits somewhere between intermediate and strict scrutiny, sometimes referred to as "heightened" scrutiny. Cases dealing with DADT also discussed applying this standard to protections for gays.

Meanwhile, you don't actually distinguish same sex marriage from interracial marriage. The reasons for preventing them are literally the same ones (tradition and religious objections) and the prohibition is equally arbitrary. Loving provides a fundamental right to marry, governed by strict scrutiny. You have to make an argument as to why that shouldn't apply to homosexuals, and "gayness and race aren't the same thing" doesn't address that.

I'm surprised you don't know what Brown is, since we already talked about separate but equal. Brown v Board of Education (the only case commonly given the shorthand name of "Brown") is where the court held that having a separate classification is, no matter how equal they seem to be, inherently unequal and a violation of the constitution. Again, they did not limit this decision to matters of race. That is why the lesser status of civil union, no matter how identical on paper, is an unacceptable and unconstitutional solution to same sex rights.

These are exactly the same kinds of arguments that circuit court judges have been making for years, and they are the binding arguments. Did you even read Perry? That is, Hollingsworth v Perry, the case that overturned Proposition 8? That's the informative ruling for the whole country right now, and it uses many of these exact arguments. The only thing it doesn't do is determine a constitutional standard. It does, however, show why higher ones are more appropriate without reaching a final conclusion. All you have are assertions, and if you supposedly made a decent distinguishing argument, you could at least link it. But I imagine it's not nearly as good as you claim.

And as to why you need to argue against yourself... you need to account for all the things your opponent will bring up. If you want to make a compelling legal argument, you can't simply just bring your part and let your opponent bring theirs and hope that yours is more compelling. You have to answer what your opponent will discuss. That's literally something covered in the first semester in a law school.

Treating two naturally unequal people as were they equals is frequently stupid and often grossly unfair. Think of a handicap.

The treatment of femininity as a handicap is pretty much the reason that heterosexual marriage is declining.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Lawrence did. It applied a level that sits somewhere between intermediate and strict scrutiny, sometimes referred to as "heightened" scrutiny.

Prove it. Cite specific language from the majority's decision in Lawrence v. Texas that shows it was applying any form of heightened scrutiny in invalidating the Texas sodomy law.

You are pretending to know what you don't. Strict scrutiny IS heightened scrutiny--the most common form. The Court has also used another form of heightened scrutiny that's usually called "intermediate." There is no level of heightened scrutiny sitting between the two called "heightened scrutiny."
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Observe this claim that you originally responded to:



If, in fact, I am correct and SSM is indeed a symptom of the same root issues that have also caused our increasing inability to form and sustain successful marriages, then we will see adoption of SSM correlate with reductions in heterosexual marriage and reductions in marriage overall. The adoption of SSM does not, then, signify a "stemming of the tide" (as you have suggested), but rather an continued acceleration along a glide path of marriage failure across society.

If your argument basically boils down to "If you discount all the bad results, then the results are great!", then all you have done is predetermined your result by perverse input selection.

So, "number of marriages" isn't your measuring stick then? What is?
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Gay "marriage" is a sick, disgusting abomination.

No, that would be Christianity.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Because it condones that which is not natural.

Neither is living in a house or driving a car. I'm sure you do both, hypocrite.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

So, "number of marriages" isn't your measuring stick then? What is?

See that word in your post, "percentages" ?

100 successful marriages out of a population of (say) 210 adults is pretty good.

100 successful marraiges out of a population of 2100 adults is not.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

See that word in your post, "percentages" ?

100 successful marriages out of a population of (say) 210 adults is pretty good.

100 successful marraiges out of a population of 2100 adults is not.

Right, but I'm using the entire population, from which a percentage of people are currently artificially excluded by laws against getting married to their partner. You, for some reason, are choosing to exclude that population up until they do have the option to get married. I guess they just don't count as part of society and culture until then?
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

See that word in your post, "percentages" ?

100 successful marriages out of a population of (say) 210 adults is pretty good.

100 successful marraiges out of a population of 2100 adults is not.

A "successful" marriage though is subjective. And there is nothing truly wrong or harmful about people just getting divorced, ending their marriages. Unless there are other issues, then that in itself is just the ending of a personal relationship that truly has no affect on you.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Prove it. Cite specific language from the majority's decision in Lawrence v. Texas that shows it was applying any form of heightened scrutiny in invalidating the Texas sodomy law.

You are pretending to know what you don't. Strict scrutiny IS heightened scrutiny--the most common form. The Court has also used another form of heightened scrutiny that's usually called "intermediate." There is no level of heightened scrutiny sitting between the two called "heightened scrutiny."

Hence, limited understanding.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Heterosexual marriage is currently in decline, do you believe homosexual marriage is one of the reasons for that decline?

Yes
No
Other

No. The reason for the hetero marriage decline is due to a decline in morals overall. More cohabitation and casual sex. Morals are viewed as some right wing conspiracy. The left equates morals with christian zealotry, so its bad.

Look at television today, its far more violent and sexual than it was in the 70s 80s and 90s. Network tv, cable and premium channels.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Right, but I'm using the entire population, from which a percentage of people are currently artificially excluded by laws against getting married to their partner. You, for some reason, are choosing to exclude that population up until they do have the option to get married. I guess they just don't count as part of society and culture until then?

No I am not. I am pointing out that the push to bring in SSM is part of the same cultural shifts that reduce the incidence of successful marriage, and that thus SSM will correlate with reductions in successful marriages across the populace.

So, to put it back into mathematics, ((Heterosexuals * 0.75) + (Homosexuals * 0.0)) / Total Populace > ((Heterosexuals *0.4) + (Homosexuals * 0.15)) / Total Populace
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

A "successful" marriage though is subjective. And there is nothing truly wrong or harmful about people just getting divorced, ending their marriages.

There is, actually. Divorce makes people poorer, less happy, and less capable of raising well-adjusted children.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

There is, actually. Divorce makes people poorer, less happy, and less capable of raising well-adjusted children.

Not necessarily. It depends on the couple and their particular divorce. Even if it is the case for most, it is still not the case for all.

Not all couples have children when they divorce. Not all people are less happy or poorer from their divorce, particularly one of the two people. Not all children are worse off if their parents divorce, particularly in the long run.
 
Re: Is the legalization of SS marriage a cause for the decline of heterosexual marria

Heterosexual marriage is currently in decline, do you believe homosexual marriage is one of the reasons for that decline?

Yes
No
Other
I don't think they're related one whit. In fact, once the newness of being able to marry wears off, and individual selfishness rears its ugly head, same-sex marriage will probably decline to the same status as heterosexual marriage.
 
Back
Top Bottom