View Poll Results: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

Voters
61. You may not vote on this poll
  • He should be judged strictly by today's standards and mores.

    6 9.84%
  • Somewhere in the middle. (Please elaborate)

    9 14.75%
  • He should be judged by the standards and more of the time in which he lived.

    37 60.66%
  • Other

    9 14.75%
Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 146

Thread: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

  1. #121
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabanist View Post
    Not sure why any of columbus' faults must be taught. Nobody ever taught me however instill learned of it. Teach kids the basics of what his significance is and let self discovery occur from there.

    This attempt to demonize historical figures by the left is another example of an insurgency in this country that truly wants to see its downfall
    We expect educators to at least give more than a cursory glance at subjecct content in mathematics, science, and literature. Why, besides your discomfort, hold ack in regard to history? I don't ask that we demonize, but I think as the student becomes older, it is important to instill some of the complications involved in looking at the past. By the time they are seniors, a large number of them will be exposed to it as they enter college. It's best to offer gradual bridges to the next level, so as to not disorganize a student as they progress through the academic ladder.

    I won't entirely bother to pontificate on citizenship and historical knowledge, but that's something to keep in mind as well.

    If you're a democratic person, you will perhaps believe that an average person should be exposed to both our inner demons as well as angels. If you're more of an aristocratic person, you may want to hide the masses from undesired content,, but expose those most worthy with the knowledge of the otherwise undesired content. Regardless, someone will have to know it, to be better prepared. Depriving the elites of this knowledge won't serve them well as they lead their societal inferiors. Depriving a democratic people of unsightly knowledge doesn't lead to a better informed aand wiser leadership when they are expected to help take the mantle.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #122
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I don't find that in any credible Jeffersonian history. Do you have a citation for it that doesn't link to a leftwing Founder's hating website?
    George Granger, I believe, would be an employee of Jefferson's you would want to look at. There's other individuals who had been exposed to the notion that where the carrot would not provide, a stick would finish the job. Of course, that doesn't necessarily cover the runaways, but Jefferson sought to secure them as well.

    Is it really that difficult for you to consider that slavery necessitated both the threat and execution of violence to produce adequate crop or product output?
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-15-14 at 02:29 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #123
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I did probably introduce an unnecessary sociopolitical element to the debate by accusing the left of using selective history to demonize historical heroic figures, but I have not seen those on the right doing that. You will see on this thread those who declare Columbus a terrible person and unworthy of any commendation because he did some bad things. The right is more likely to err in the opposite direction by omitting the less commendable in order to create historical heroes.

    In my opinion, honest history accepts that all people will be a mix of noble and less noble, some good, some bad, and everything in between and allows them to be who and what they are within their own times and culture. Jefferson was definitely a product of his times and culture as were all the early presidents. Of the first 18 President of the USA, twelve of them owned slaves at some time in their lives and eight owned slaves while they served as President. The last U.S. President to have been a former slave owner was Ulysses S. Grant. That does not take away from Jefferson's accomplishments as statesman, author of founding documents, diplomat, POTUS any more than it takes away from any of the other Presidents. Jefferson himself, as POTUS, worked tirelessly to end or at least limit slavery as is well documented in the research of the Monticello Society here: Thomas Jefferson and Slavery Thomas Jefferson

    Honest history allows a Thomas Jefferson or a Christopher Columbus or anybody else acknowledgments of their accomplishments and contributions to society and does not diminish or negate those because they were not perfect people.
    Jefferson didn't work "tirelessly" to end slavery. Franklin could possibly be seen as having done more than Jefferson. Was he philosophically against it? Yes. Was he, like many of his southern ilk, nevertheless tied to it? Yes. The "peculiar institution" did that to people, and Jefferson was no exception. He was fairly mum on the subject during his political prime. Sure, he thought much like many during his time, that perhaps you could free them, send them off to a remote colony somewhere; but with age came greater and greater reluctance to act. Toward the end of Jefferson's life, he had a letter from an up and coming gentleman (whose name escapes me). This young man wanted to rally support for more anti-slavery measures and sentiment. Jefferson in his more elderly years could have offered support, some social networks, whatever have you. Instead, the man diligently responded by telling the young man that the enterprise wasn't really worth the bother.

    Does this to me mean that Jefferson's merits are destroyed? Not really, no. He did many great things. But much like John Adams' legacy had to endure for centuries, so too must Jefferson deal with the sensibilities of his successors of many generations down the line. It became somewhat of a canard to think that the greatness of american Presidents went from Washington to Jefferson, skipping poor frumpy Adams. Why? Because Adams not only made political errors with his cabinet, but he also was seen as this anti-democratic monster who crushed dissent during an emerging war. But now Mr. Adams is receiving a bit of a resurgence. Not just because of the War on Terror's reevaluation of civil liberties, but also because, quite frankly, Adams comes out smelling better with the slavery and race test than Jefferson does. It's the blunt truth.

    Is the race or slavery test a bad idea? No. As I said before, each successive generation does this with the past anyway. We can't change that. But what has largely gone unsaid here (with exception to one poster) is that these ideas bring uncomfortable narrative changes to the predominant white historical narrative. Increases in criticisms of slavery or race are somehow construed as *merely* the creation of modernist sensibilities. This forgets, however, that there was another people living amongst the political class of the era, and they also sometimes happened to have a different skin color. Those people's perceptions matter. Black voice isn't isolated to modernist sensibilities. It's part of the past. It's inescapably tangled with it. Bringing that to the forefront isn't a dereliction of duty of being a scholar. It's perfectly in line with scholarship. should it keep in mind the dominant power structures in place and how that works? Absolutely. I have said so before numerous times. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean your slaves and black folks don't get a vote, either.

    Will it change? Yep. Probably in directions which we can't quite predict yet. That's the way history works in the public's perception.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-15-14 at 02:59 AM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  4. #124
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,709

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Jefferson didn't work "tirelessly" to end slavery. Franklin could possibly be seen as having done more than Jefferson. Was he philosophically against it? Yes. Was he, like many of his southern ilk, nevertheless tied to it? Yes. The "peculiar institution" did that to people, and Jefferson was no exception. He was fairly mum on the subject during his political prime. Sure, he thought much like many during his time, that perhaps you could free them, send them off to a remote colony somewhere; but with age came greater and greater reluctance to act. Toward the end of Jefferson's life, he had a letter from an up and coming gentleman (whose name escapes me). This young man wanted to rally support for more anti-slavery measures and sentiment. Jefferson in his more elderly years could have offered support, some social networks, whatever have you. Instead, the man diligently responded by telling the young man that the enterprise wasn't really worth the bother.

    Does this to me mean that Jefferson's merits are destroyed? Not really, no. He did many great things. But much like John Adams' legacy had to endure for centuries, so too must Jefferson deal with the sensibilities of his successors of many generations down the line. It became somewhat of a canard to think that the greatness of american Presidents went from Washington to Jefferson, skipping poor frumpy Adams. Why? Because Adams not only made political errors with his cabinet, but he also was seen as this anti-democratic monster who crushed dissent during an emerging war. But now Mr. Adams is receiving a bit of a resurgence. Not just because of the War on Terror's reevaluation of civil liberties, but also because, quite frankly, Adams comes out smelling better with the slavery and race test than Jefferson does. It's the blunt truth.

    Is the race or slavery test a bad idea? No. As I said before, each successive generation does this with the past anyway. We can't change that. But what has largely gone unsaid here (with exception to one poster) is that these ideas bring uncomfortable narrative changes to the predominant white historical narrative. Increases in criticisms of slavery or race are somehow construed as *merely* the creation of modernist sensibilities. This forgets, however, that there was another people living amongst the political class of the era, and they also sometimes happened to have a different skin color. Those people's perceptions matter. Black voice isn't isolated to modernist sensibilities. It's part of the past. It's inescapably tangled with it. Bringing that to the forefront isn't a dereliction of duty of being a scholar. It's perfectly in line with scholarship. should it keep in mind the dominant power structures in place and how that works? Absolutely. I have said so before numerous times. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean your slaves and black folks don't get a vote, either.

    Will it change? Yep. Probably in directions which we can't quite predict yet. That's the way history works in the public's perception.
    Damn iPad. I forgot to add his support for barring the international slave trade.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #125
    Resident Martian ;)
    PirateMk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    9,928

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    This presumes current thought is indeed correct thought. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe 200 years from now people will look back and declare us idiots.

    Generic comment, not Columbus-specific.
    There's no probably about it. Presuming somebody still exists then.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  6. #126
    The Light of Truth
    Northern Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,970

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Whether you judge Columbus by the merits of his time or the modern era, there were still people who hated him and found him despicable. But consider that he was also under the approval of Queen Isabella who was desperate to shore up the financial reserves of Spain, and saw the "new word" as raw material.

    It's just really unfortunate because Europe's food and land resource issues could have been solved if they worked with the North American Indians instead of against them. The natives here had terraformed more than half the continent into ecosystems of sustainable agriculture, with little waste, based on ancestral wisdom that Europe had long since disposed of in its pagan conquests.

  7. #127
    Live, Love, Laugh.
    SayMyName's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Taizhou, China
    Last Seen
    12-11-17 @ 08:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,034

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    I want to know his view about sodomy on the high seas before I make a final judgment. *winks*

  8. #128
    Sage
    shrubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 03:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,851
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Eventually, not tomorrow and not next week, Columbus Day will be wiped off of the calendar.
    Don't take my word for this, just wait and see.

    The USA will not continue to honor this genocidal loser who couldn't find India, but did kill many thousands of Native Americans whose only crime was being in his way.

  9. #129
    Phonetic Mnemonic
    radcen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Look to your right... I'm that guy.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:23 AM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    33,438

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juanita View Post
    Most explorers know what they are looking for, be it a lost tomb or Asia. He was lost. The Americas were not lost to be found. There were already many peoples living here in many varied societies.
    This made me chuckle. Especially the last sentence. What claptrap! I suspect you're willfully ignoring the meaning of 'discovered'... most explorers have might have an idea or a hope of what they're looking for, but also know that they'll probably end up completely surprised... but as you're so clearly biased I have zero faith you will concede the obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Eventually, not tomorrow and not next week, Columbus Day will be wiped off of the calendar.
    Don't take my word for this, just wait and see.

    The USA will not continue to honor this genocidal loser who couldn't find India, but did kill many thousands of Native Americans whose only crime was being in his way.
    The idiot!!! Yeah, you're right, he should have sailed through the Panama Canal and kept going to India!

    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  10. #130
    Sage
    shrubnose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 03:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    18,851
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: How should Christopher Columbus be judged?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    This made me chuckle. Especially the last sentence. What claptrap! I suspect you're willfully ignoring the meaning of 'discovered'... most explorers have might have an idea or a hope of what they're looking for, but also know that they'll probably end up completely surprised... but as you're so clearly biased I have zero faith you will concede the obvious.



    The idiot!!!
    Yeah, you're right, he should have sailed through the Panama Canal and kept going to India!







    At that time going around Africa would have been his best bet from Europe.

Page 13 of 15 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •