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Thread: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

  1. #111
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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabanist View Post
    Plenty of differences in romney and obama.
    Exactly--Romney was to the left of Sen. Kennedy in their 1994 election--and well to the left of Obama.
    Then he flip-flopped and etch-a-sketched his way to being a "serious conservative" over the next 20 years.
    He even turned down a 10-for-1 swap on cuts vs. revenues, which normal GOPs like Paul Ryan, Tom Coburn and Jon Huntsman agreed to .
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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The focus of fiscal reform should be on the large budget items. That's where the largest returns could be achieved be they through efficiency savings, reductions, or a combination of both. Foreign aid accounts for less than 2% of the federal budget. It is not a driver of the nation's long-term structural imbalances.

    The nation's defense posture should be based on the security challenges that confront it. Reliance on the good will of others simply to meet fiscal targets is a dangerous security stance. There is big concern among the nation's current and retired military leaders that the planned funding is inadequate for the security environment that confronts the nation, not to mention the context of a shifting balance of power. Rand Paul's budget would go far beyond the funding levels that have already raised concern. IMO, the funding concerns should be addressed so that military is in a good position to meet such requirements as the security environment might impose.
    Thats the same old same old big spending attitude.

    Foreign aid is only 2pct

    Welfare is only x pct

    If you save a billion here and there, it adds up.

    To each their own but if you are even considering voting for hillary i dont think we are in the same universe of priorities

  3. #113
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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    RP is an isolationist who would gut the US military. PR has a much more adult view of the requirements for US power and the US role in the world. I would not vote for Hillary happily, but at least she's not irresponsible as is RP.
    As just another example of Senator Paul's lack of attention to a robust foreign policy, recently 88 Senators from both political parties signed a letter that asked Secretary of State Kerry "to focus on three key objectives: (1) preventing Hamas from rebuilding its military capabilities; (2) enabling the Palestinian Authority to move toward becoming the Palestinian governing authority in Gaza; and (3) preventing negative developments at the UN General Assembly, UN Human Rights Council, and the International Criminal Court that could derail any prospects for the resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians."

    Israel is a strategic U.S. ally and the Mideast is torn by various sectarian conflicts, the Sunni-Shia split, and extremist actors such as ISIS. Among the 12 Senators who did not weigh in was Rand Paul.

    The text of the letter and those who signed it can be found at: Casey, Ayotte Lead 88 Senators in Letter Opposing Hamas and Warning Against Unilateral Palestinian Initiatives that Would Derail Future Peace Talks - U.S. Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    RP is an isolationist who would gut the US military. PR has a much more adult view of the requirements for US power and the US role in the world. I would not vote for Hillary happily, but at least she's not irresponsible as is RP.
    I don't think he is an isolationist, per se. He advocates for various amounts of interventions in some areas of the world. That being said, it cannot be denied that he advocates for far less of a role for the United States around the world in comparison with the status-quo or short-term expected stature of United States foreign affairs. However, despite his differences from his father, Rand somewhat consistently panders to the worst populist impulses of the Republican Party in regard to foreign aid. I'm skeptical there would be much follow-through if he were to get into office, and believe much of it is satisfying the psyche of the uninformed. That being said, the fact that he's saying these things is worrying.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabanist View Post
    Can you back this up with some statement ... he would gut the military?
    His budget proposal is as definitive a statement as there could be. Paul's proposed 2014-2023 defense outlays (p.93) has a nearly 19% reduction from President Obama's latest budget for the same time frame (p.8).

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've been disagreeing that "accepting science" is what "did him in", or that "he refused to pander to the crazy" is what "killed him".

    And I continue to disagree with that. Saying that singular thing, "accepting science" or "refusing to pander" to parts of the base about that science is what "killed him" or "did him in" is absolutely, positively, ridiculous and ignorant of the reality of that campaign.
    And my point is that science bit was just a manifestation of the reasons why he lost.

    As I've stated...MULTIPLE times now, clear as day...the bigger issue was not that he believed in evolution (I'd wager most Republican candidates do) or that he believed there was some merit to Global Warming (I'd wager most Republican candidats don't), it was that he was actively hostile towards other candidates/part of the republican base regarding those issues. Specifically in the midst of a campaign where he made it an absolute point to NOT be hostile towards people on the other side of the aisle.

    Had he no made his "call me crazy" quip I frankly don't think evolution would've even been an issue with his primary campaign. I believe his stance on Global Warming would've came up given his history as Governor, but could've easily been navigated around with even a modicum of political savy by pointing back to his own comments regarding his stance that action at the federal action to combat Global Warming was not an appropriate step to take with our current economic situation.

    His issue was not his beliefs with regard to evolution and global warming...his issue was with his attitude and reaction regarding those beliefs.
    But does that even matter when his policy stances themselves are opposite of what the GOP primary voter wants? Sure Huntsman made bad points at being hostile, but that again is just manifestation of his absolute refusal to pander. My ultimate point is that Huntsman lost (and stood no chance) because he refused to pander. Everything else is just a symptom of that. It's not particularly any specific policy, it's his refusal to abandon his positions and do what Romney did. Its kind of messed up how the GOP wanted a fighter, but picked a guy who literally abandoned his own former principles and beliefs. That's a mercenary at best. When Huntsman's attitude is I'm not going to pander, he's doomed. I think we can both agree on that. His insulting of the hard right was just a symptom of his refusal to do what Romney did.

    Actually, it does address the core problem with him in terms of winning a primary (And seriously, find me ANY politician who has won a Presidential primary by not pandering to some aspect of his parties base before. I'll be sitting here waiting). His campaign COMPLETELY misread the attitudes and expectations of the base at that point and made a multitude of calculated errors in handling the campaign.
    No, it doesn't address the absolute necessity that a GOP candidate requires at least part of the hard social right to win a nomination. Huntsman was getting none of that. At all. Period. I don't disagree that you need to pander, you do, but in the GOP case, you need to pander to groups that held beliefs diametrically opposite of what Huntsman wanted. Romney was willing to forsake all that he believed in to do so. Huntsman was not. Yes, his campaign misread the attitudes, and it was pretty stupid to run a campaign on being a responsible adult when the GOP wanted a no nuance firebrand. But Huntsman was never going to be that candidate. He was never going to be the guy who ignored all the facts to spread myths to placate the voters. He was never going to be the guy who got down into social conservative ditches. He was never going to be the candidate that the GOP primary voters wanted. He was never willing to be the guy who ran with a story he knew was so twisted from the truth to get air time. And he was never willing to be that guy.

    This isn't even about "pandering" but simply actually engaging in a political campaign in the most basic facets possible. There's a chasm between pandering to a particular audience and deftly/tactfully navigating around issues you disagree on without insulting said particular audience. If Huntsman had no intent on ever doing the latter than I become an even bigger critic and questioner of this judgement as it shows a reprehensible level of fiscal irresponsability to get into a major political race without any intentions of actually engaging in the basic understood tactics of a political campaign.
    Yes and no. What the GOP wanted and what Huntsman was willing to be were never going to be the same thing. Huntsman could navigate all he wanted, but that wasn't what the voters in the primaries wanted. How can you navigate the desire to be a no nuanced firebrand? Outside of the vague framework of less taxes, less regulation and more private activity, what exactly did Huntsman agree with per the primary voter? He wasn't a social conservative. He wasn't anti-foreign. He understood that America is not in a unipolar world anymore. His views on science and reality were wholly different. Maybe you're right that he basically jumped into a race trying to win the votes of people who were never going to agree with him.

    Yes, Huntsman was kind of naive for running at a time like this, but maybe he had the notion that if he could win the primary, the general would be a cake walk (which probably would have been true).

    You want to belittle people by accusing them of not watching the 2012 primary? Turn the mirror around on yourself with this asinine backseat hyper partisan blithering assessment you put forth here. I actively followed the 2012 republican primary from the onset and my stances regarding Huntsman, his errors and issues, have LONG been recorded on this forum dating back to the actual primary. Take your hyper partisan garbage and try to shovel it down someone's throat that is far more ignorant than mine becuase I recognize it as the bull**** and propoganda fueld droning of an anti-conservative shill that it is.
    Did you not see Romney's complete abandonment of his principles? Did you not see the Huntsman refuse to follow Romney's lead?

    Before you accuse me of being a hyperpartisan, remember that I posted my vote for Gary Johnson in 2012 to the forum. Remember that I made it very clear I would have voted for Huntsman many times. Remember that I started calling Obama Bush III in 2009. I'm not Disneydude.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabanist View Post
    Can you back this up with some statement that paul made that indicated he is an isolationist and he would gut the military?
    Rand Paul's foreign policy views aren't liberal and they aren ...

    dailycaller.com/.../rand-pauls-foreign-policy-views-arent...The Daily Caller


    Apr 2, 2014 - Rand Paul has taken a page from the foreign policy views of the .... Hawks commonly argue that entitlement liabilities dwarf military spending, and that's ... The truth is that Paul, like many Democrats, wants to cut the defense ...


    Rand Paul Adjusts Foreign Policy Stance - WSJ

    online.wsj.com/.../rand-paul-adjusts-foreign-policy-...The Wall Street Journal


    Sep 18, 2014 - Rand Paul staked out new territory for the GOP when he proposed cutting defense spending by 10% and eliminating foreign aid. "A more
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I don't think he is an isolationist, per se. He advocates for various amounts of interventions in some areas of the world. That being said, it cannot be denied that he advocates for far less of a role for the United States around the world in comparison with the status-quo or short-term expected stature of United States foreign affairs. However, despite his differences from his father, Rand somewhat consistently panders to the worst populist impulses of the Republican Party in regard to foreign aid. I'm skeptical there would be much follow-through if he were to get into office, and believe much of it is satisfying the psyche of the uninformed. That being said, the fact that he's saying these things is worrying.
    It's never a good idea to vote for someone on the assumption he/she won't follow through.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    His budget proposal is as definitive a statement as there could be. Paul's proposed 2014-2023 defense outlays (p.93) has a nearly 19% reduction from President Obama's latest budget for the same time frame (p.8).
    Hardly evidence of isolationism. More like constitutionally appropriate. Read your own link beginning on page 38. He describes his plan. Too many look at defense as the sacred cow and cannot really justify WHY it cant be reduced, they just call anyone who tries an isolationist or worse.

    He includes a great quote from ike. "We will bankrupt oursellves in the vain search of absolute security."

    Our defense defense budget is over 10 times that of the nearest competitor. Its larger than the gdp of several nations.

    If you are a conservative, you want to see a reduction across the board, including defense.

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    Re: Who would you vote for in a republican primary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Rand Paul's foreign policy views aren't liberal and they aren ...

    dailycaller.com/.../rand-pauls-foreign-policy-views-arent...The Daily Caller


    Apr 2, 2014 - Rand Paul has taken a page from the foreign policy views of the .... Hawks commonly argue that entitlement liabilities dwarf military spending, and that's ... The truth is that Paul, like many Democrats, wants to cut the defense ...


    Rand Paul Adjusts Foreign Policy Stance - WSJ

    online.wsj.com/.../rand-paul-adjusts-foreign-policy-...The Wall Street Journal


    Sep 18, 2014 - Rand Paul staked out new territory for the GOP when he proposed cutting defense spending by 10% and eliminating foreign aid. "A more
    So you are posting links that he has adjusted his foreign policy stance in favor of bigger defense budgets in attempt to prove what?

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