View Poll Results: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

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  • Yes

    15 20.00%
  • No

    59 78.67%
  • Not sure

    1 1.33%
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Thread: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

  1. #811
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are the one who has tried to claim-despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that cops are not civilians.
    Your quarrel is with the authoritative experts on the English language who write the American dictionaries.

    Can you provide us with any proof that the rights attempt to redefine the term CIVILIAN into something other than the standard dictionary definition existed before Heller?
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  2. #812
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your quarrel is with the authoritative experts on the English language who write the American dictionaries.
    yes we have been through that false claim of yours before and it was destroyed. MW reported a parlance that cops use and you pretend it is an authoritative legal definition which of course is not accurate



  3. #813
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yes we have been through that false claim of yours before and it was destroyed. MW reported a parlance that cops use and you pretend it is an authoritative legal definition which of course is not accurate
    I have NEVER used your own strawman about cops using the term to each other. That is your strawman. That is your claim. It is not mine.

    To continue to put forth that intellectual fraud is highly dishonest as it is NOT my argument and has NEVER been my argument.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #814
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have NEVER used your own strawman about cops using the term to each other. That is your strawman. That is your claim. It is not mine.

    To continue to put forth that intellectual fraud is highly dishonest as it is NOT my argument and has NEVER been my argument.
    its not a straw man

    any municipality, state or federal agency that supplies civilian LE officers with certain weapons are making a plain and open statement that such weapons are the most suitable for civilians to use in a civilian environment for self defense against criminals. that pretty much destroys the lies of Democrats who claim that such weapons have "NO LEGITIMATE USE" or reason for other civilians to possess them



  5. #815
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your quarrel is with the authoritative experts on the English language who write the American dictionaries.
    Here's one of those experts. Do you agree with his assessment, or do you only cite the "experts", when they support your position?

    J. Neil Schulman: The Unabridged Second Amendment

  6. #816
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    its not a straw man
    yup - its your strawman - it has never been my argument. Its all yours.
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  7. #817
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Here's one of those experts. Do you agree with his assessment, or do you only cite the "experts", when they support your position?

    J. Neil Schulman: The Unabridged Second Amendment
    Its an opinion. The opinion Scalia cited in Heller cited came to the opposite conclusion. Here it is for you both from Scalia and his source

    first from Scalia in Heller
    The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose. The Amendment could be rephrased, “Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” See J. Tiffany, A Treatise on Government and Constitutional Law 585, p. 394 (1867); Brief for Professors of Linguistics and English as Amici Curiae 3 (hereinafter Linguists’ Brief).
    I read both cited by Scalia as the reasons for his dividing the Amendment with those labels.

    The first source - Tiffany - says nothing about that and does not use that label or distinction. The Second was a brief submitted to the Court for Heller and contains some of the most upside down gobbledy-gook word salad parsing I have ever seen in my 65 years. I would ask anyone who thinks it provides any legal basis for the Scalia PREFATORY and OPERANT distinctions to step up toe the plate and explain what that Brief said that was so crucial in making it the platform upon which the decision sits.

    But let me quote from a rather clear part of that same brief Scalia cites as important to determining his reasoning:


    The term “bear arms” is an idiom that means to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight. To “bear arms against” means “to be engaged in hostilities with.” The word “arms” itself has an overwhelmingly military meaning, referring to weapons of offense or armor of defense. In every instance we have found where the term “bear arms” (or “bearing arms” or “bear arms against”) is employed, without any additional modifying language attached, the term unquestionably is used in its idiomatic military sense. It is only where additional language is tacked on, either to bend the idiom by specifying a particular type of fighting or to break the idiom by adding incompatible language, that the meaning of “bear arms” deviates. In the Second Amendment, the term is employed in its natural, unadorned state and, therefore, one must conclude, was used idiomatically to refer to military service.
    So the very brief Scalia cites from experts which he claims he used in Heller says the opposite.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Its an opinion. The opinion Scalia cited in Heller cited came to the opposite conclusion.
    That's what I thought.

  9. #819
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    That's what I thought.
    Great. Glad we agree. Now maybe you can explain why the expert cited by Scalia in Heller came to the opposite conclusion?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Great. Glad we agree. Now maybe you can explain why the expert cited by Scalia in Heller came to the opposite conclusion?
    Glad you admit you only cite "experts" when they support your position.

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