View Poll Results: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

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  • Yes

    15 20.00%
  • No

    59 78.67%
  • Not sure

    1 1.33%
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Thread: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

  1. #231
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post


    That problem.

    I'm of the belief that a lot of that has to do with this:

    And You know for a fact that it is caused by only guns?

    Prove it.
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  2. #232
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post


    That problem.

    I'm of the belief that a lot of that has to do with this:




    The problem is you're cherry-picking your data to support your argument. Try it from the raw data and you get a different picture.


    I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

    Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

    Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
    El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
    Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
    Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
    Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
    Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
    Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
    Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
    skipping down a bit...
    Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
    South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
    skipping down some more...
    Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
    Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
    skipping down some more...
    Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
    Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

    And finally, well over halfway down the list...

    USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


    Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

    OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.



    To go further and compare and contrast two 1st-world nations with VERY different rates of gun ownership... try the UK and Canada.

    I did a little checking. It is believed that there are between 7 million and 11 million guns, privately owned, in Canada, among a population of about 35 million... and there are also reports that there may be millions more guns that were never registered or "went missing".

    So, Canada is not exactly short of firearms. You have far more per-capita than most European nations, five times as many per-capita as England and Wales, and come in 13th in the world in per-capita gun ownership.

    Sources:
    HOW MANY GUNS ARE THERE IN CANADA
    Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Canada has five times as many guns per capita as the UK, but the murder rate is barely any higher.... 1.6 compared to 1.2, so murder rate is clearly not proportional to gun ownership rates.

    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world, 91 per 100,000, as compared to the US at a mere 4.2....

    Yet the US has a gun ownership ratio of over 88 per 100 residents, while Honduras' rate of private gun ownership is a mere 6.2 per 100... far far lower than Canada's, about the same as England.


    Clearly, private gun ownership and murder rates are NOT directly linked.

    As I've said, from my studies it appears that all nations and/or localities with a high murder rate have some or all of the following:

    Bad government
    Poverty
    Drug trade
    Gangs or other violent factions
    Excessive population density

    Put a high level on three or four of those, and you have lots of murders and violent crimes.

    There's simply no logic in focusing on the tool used for violence when it is so obvious that this is not the causal factor.

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  3. #233
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The problem is you're cherry-picking your data to support your argument. Try it from the raw data and you get a different picture.


    I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

    Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

    Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
    El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
    Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
    Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
    Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
    Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
    Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
    Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
    skipping down a bit...
    Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
    South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
    skipping down some more...
    Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
    Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
    skipping down some more...
    Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
    Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

    And finally, well over halfway down the list...

    USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


    Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

    OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.



    To go further and compare and contrast two 1st-world nations with VERY different rates of gun ownership... try the UK and Canada.

    I did a little checking. It is believed that there are between 7 million and 11 million guns, privately owned, in Canada, among a population of about 35 million... and there are also reports that there may be millions more guns that were never registered or "went missing".

    So, Canada is not exactly short of firearms. You have far more per-capita than most European nations, five times as many per-capita as England and Wales, and come in 13th in the world in per-capita gun ownership.

    Sources:
    HOW MANY GUNS ARE THERE IN CANADA
    Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Canada has five times as many guns per capita as the UK, but the murder rate is barely any higher.... 1.6 compared to 1.2, so murder rate is clearly not proportional to gun ownership rates.

    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world, 91 per 100,000, as compared to the US at a mere 4.2....

    Yet the US has a gun ownership ratio of over 88 per 100 residents, while Honduras' rate of private gun ownership is a mere 6.2 per 100... far far lower than Canada's, about the same as England.


    Clearly, private gun ownership and murder rates are NOT directly linked.

    As I've said, from my studies it appears that all nations and/or localities with a high murder rate have some or all of the following:

    Bad government
    Poverty
    Drug trade
    Gangs or other violent factions
    Excessive population density

    Put a high level on three or four of those, and you have lots of murders and violent crimes.

    There's simply no logic in focusing on the tool used for violence when it is so obvious that this is not the causal factor.
    Compared to other first world nations we do though. Sure, we're not as violent as Honduras is, but that's not a particularly compelling argument. Our goal should be to be better than not just the Honduras' of the world, but of the Germany and Japans out there.

  4. #234
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Nope. All we need is a Supreme Court who is not a slave to right wing ideology and will not let than determine how they interpret it. And elections and time will take care of that.
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  5. #235
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Compared to other first world nations we do though. Sure, we're not as violent as Honduras is, but that's not a particularly compelling argument. Our goal should be to be better than not just the Honduras' of the world, but of the Germany and Japans out there.

    I don't wish to be Germany, nor Japan.




    Comparing nations tends to be apples and orangutans anyway.


    But looking at various jurisdictions, there is no reason to believe gun control leads to any decline in violence.

    Rates of violence are chiefly a result of


    Poverty
    Corrupt/ineffective gov't
    Gangs/tribes/factions
    drug trade
    cultural traits.


    After studying this issue for many years, I am convinced of that.

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  6. #236
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    I understand your argument, but you're contradicting yourself.

    You're claiming that with reducing access to guns that human nature still won't be subverted; murder will still occur, with or without (legally available) guns . You'll use your (legal) gun possession as a deterrent, both proactively -- preventing potential criminals from considering violation of your property by fear of you being armed, and retroactively -- physically attacking them with (legal) guns to prevent them from violating your property.

    Fair summary?

    You also appear to be arguing that it's human nature to take any means to protect one's property and that violent acts including murder are also human nature.

    If that's all true, then decreasing legal guns won't stop you from getting one to defend your home, or give the criminal any reason to believe that you're less likely to have one, or be any less prepared to use one. That status quo is seemingly not changed, only access is decreased, and with that, less weapons are available for all parties to continue the war we're having on one another.

    The gun death rate correlates to the percentage of gun owners if you break it down state by state.

    well mother jones is a joke and it ignores legal vs illegal gun owners



  7. #237
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh, my bad.

    Ahem..

    Please post your links to who is killing people with .50cal machine guns.
    PLease show me where I said that a .50 was being used to kill people.
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  8. #238
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And how would they be prevented in those places?
    By - not - allowing - 100 round magazines - or - the - purchase - of - 15 - or - 30 - round - clips - or - full - auto.

    It - is - important - to - follow - a - conversation - so - that - you - will - understand - what - is - being - discussed - and - in - what - context - so - that - you - can - make - an - appropriate - comment - or - ask - an - question. O - k - ?
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  9. #239
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    By - not - allowing - 100 round magazines - or - the - purchase - of - 15 - or - 30 - round - clips - or - full - auto.

    It - is - important - to - follow - a - conversation - so - that - you - will - understand - what - is - being - discussed - and - in - what - context - so - that - you - can - make - an - appropriate - comment - or - ask - an - question. O - k - ?
    almost every modern 9mm pistol comes with 15-19 round MAGAZINE

    you want to ban those

    you seem to want to ban things or practices that you are unable to establish are harmful



  10. #240
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    PLease show me where I said that a .50 was being used to kill people.
    Ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    The gun nuts put their right to carry and .50 cal machine guns over and above the citizen’s right to a peaceful existence with all of the nuts killing people.
    If you're now saying that no one is killing anyone with .50cal machine-guns then that wasn't really a relevant thing for you to bring up.

    So was that a red herring or are people actually committing crimes with .50cal machine-guns?

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