View Poll Results: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

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  • Yes

    15 20.00%
  • No

    59 78.67%
  • Not sure

    1 1.33%
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Thread: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

  1. #1111
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Orwontee View Post
    And you have followed Haymarket's red herring and now the discussion is back right where he wants it, where the right is dependent upon the words chosen to secure it.
    Actually the Amendment and its meaning is dependent on the words used in the Amendment itself. And the word is INFRINGED.

    The best exposition is Madison's introduction of the proposed amendments, especially Section 10.
    Again, the best source is the Amendment itself. The personal opinion of an individual engaged in a political endeavor is basically irrelevant and is certainly not law.

    The rights enumerated already existed
    Where exactly? I keep asking and you and others keep running away from an answer.

    That the right to arms is not granted, given, created or otherwise established by the 2nd Amendment thus it is not in any manner dependent upon the words of the Constitution for its existence.
    Again - so where does it come from outside of any self imposed belief system?
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    The reliance on Article I Sec. 8 is one of the more amusing bits of obfuscation we have seen on this board and requires those who make this claim to read those clauses completely differently than what they do when they read the 2A
    You ask for evidence and when it is provided you reject it because it does not fit into your political agenda.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post

    If you seriously think you're going to wear down an ideological zealot such as him, have at it. Good luck with that one.
    What ideology is that?
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Orwontee View Post

    His argument, when boiled down and rendered to its basic premises is for absolutism and subjugation as it works to extinguish the thought that humans possess the right of self-determination and the right to establish the government of the choosing and empower it as they wish. The Constitution is based on those principles and its operation demands the acceptance of those principles and his reprehensible ridicule of those principles is why I call him, without qualification, an enemy of the Constitution.
    Actually it is quite the opposite. I believe in the people and it is the people who create the government and then empower it to serve them.
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  5. #1115
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What ideology is that?
    Leftist? Marxist? Fascist? Take your pick.

  6. #1116
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Oh please. Do you seriously think you can confine a liberal usurpers discussion to any one area? My only purpose in this thread, is to jump in occasionally and shine a light on his obviously untenable positions concerning the Second Amendment.

    If you seriously think you're going to wear down an ideological zealot such as him, have at it. Good luck with that one.
    We can choose what we respond to and what that response will be.

    I have no delusion that I will ever sway him; I post for the lurkers and others who are reading and my goal is to expose Haymarket's positions as incompatible with the Constitution and its enforcement.

    When we engage his foolishness and seriously debate it, it elevates his foolishness and gives it credence. A person reading such a "debate" may come away thinking, "well, both sides have good points, it really does depend on what 'infringe' means" . . . Well, no, both sides don't have equivalency, it isn't a toss-up that can fall on one side or the other depending on how one defines the words of the 2nd Amendment.

    The simple reply to his desire to steer the discussion to definitions of the 2nd Amendment's words and how that limits what citizens can do, is that the right does not flow from the words so examining the words, upon which the right in no manner depends, is a perversion of the Constitution and is useless mental masturbation.

    He is a troll who's only intent is to divert discussion to meaningless points that only obfuscate and confuse. Keeping the discussion focused and narrow will frustrate and dissuade him and that futility will be apparent in his posting. That's all we can hope for, to simply expose the untenability of his arguments and their disconnect from the Constitution because as you said, there's no hope of him ever coming around.
    I already have a license to own a gun; it's called a birth certificate.

  7. #1117
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually it is quite the opposite. I believe in the people and it is the people who create the government and then empower it to serve them.
    How can that be true when you dismiss with ridicule that inherent rights exist? "Inherent rights" being rights that exist within the person BEFORE government is established -- in a state of nature -- that are retained by the people when society (government) is created, by being held out of the express, limited powers granted to government.

    How can people possess a right to create the government of their choosing and empower it along foundational principles they establish, before government exists to give them this right?

    How can you say you believe that people have the right to create the government of their choosing if the belief that government can be constrained by the principles of pre-existing rights is a mystical belief that exists only in the mind of the willful believer and thus can't be said to restrain government?

    So, are you just falling back on being a disingenuous liar or are you suffering from some sort of debilitating cognitive disorder where you can not recognize fatal conflicts in your position?
    I already have a license to own a gun; it's called a birth certificate.

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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Leftist? Marxist? Fascist? Take your pick.
    You are the one making the claim so it is up to you to pick and then support it with verifiable evidence.
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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Orwontee View Post
    How can that be true when you dismiss with ridicule that inherent rights exist? "Inherent rights" being rights that exist within the person BEFORE government is established -- in a state of nature -- that are retained when one enters society by being held out of the express powers granted to government.

    How can people possess a right to create the government of their choosing and empower it along foundational principles they establish, before government exists to give them this right?

    How can you say you believe that people have the right to create the government of their choosing if the belief that government can be constrained by the principles of pre-existing rights is a mystical belief that exists only in the mind of the willful believer and thus can't be said to restrain government?

    So, are you just falling back on being a disingenuous liar or are you suffering from some sort of debilitating cognitive disorder where you can not recognize fatal conflicts in your position?
    That is utterly ridiculous. I do not have to believe in what you believe in to have faith that the people make the best government and it is the peoples government which serves the people the best.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Do you think the second amendment needs amended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie Orwontee View Post
    How can that be true when you dismiss with ridicule that inherent rights exist? "Inherent rights" being rights that exist within the person BEFORE government is established -- in a state of nature -- that are retained by the people when society (government) is created, by being held out of the express, limited powers granted to government.

    How can people possess a right to create the government of their choosing and empower it along foundational principles they establish, before government exists to give them this right?

    How can you say you believe that people have the right to create the government of their choosing if the belief that government can be constrained by the principles of pre-existing rights is a mystical belief that exists only in the mind of the willful believer and thus can't be said to restrain government?

    So, are you just falling back on being a disingenuous liar or are you suffering from some sort of debilitating cognitive disorder where you can not recognize fatal conflicts in your position?
    Both, I think. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive positions.

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