View Poll Results: Who's more at fault?

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  • Bush

    7 16.67%
  • Obama

    17 40.48%
  • A bit of both.

    7 16.67%
  • Neither.

    11 26.19%
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Thread: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

  1. #11
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Our country never learns from our mistakes and keeps up the same rhetorical nonsense. They were saying on FOX today that Hong Kong protestors should keep it up, till they get democracy. I thought, how stupid can you be to keep giving the same self righteous advice that hasn't worked anywhere in the ME?
    I am not sure that it is bad to fight the fight and am certainly glad our ancestors did.

  2. #12
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I am not sure that it is bad to fight the fight and am certainly glad our ancestors did.
    The problem is that they're not getting what they fighting for only something worse.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  3. #13
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The problem is that they're not getting what they fighting for only something worse.
    But look at us or our parents. Of course, one can die getting there. But if one allows ones government to suppress the population one is responsible for its suppression of ones own children. In one allows it to spend taxes on mass murder, one is an accessory to the crimes. That might not make any difference, of course. All depends on the way one sees these things. Personally, I think it is worth fighting.

  4. #14
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    But look at us or our parents. Of course, one can die getting there. But if one allows ones government to suppress the population one is responsible for its suppression of ones own children. In one allows it to spend taxes on mass murder, one is an accessory to the crimes. That might not make any difference, of course. All depends on the way one sees these things. Personally, I think it is worth fighting.
    Many of those countries peoples are not favorable to our version of secular gov't and rule. They were operating on the highest level they probably could, before we invaded or encouraged all this change. The U.S. trying to reinvent the globe in it's own image is a little ridiculous and not working. If we didn't need the oil resources, and they had no capabilities of attacking us directly with weapons, other than some criminal terrorist attacks, we'd have been better off to leave them alone. We're definitely in it now, and not sure how to fight.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  5. #15
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Is the rise of ISIS more of Bush's fault for invading Iraq, or more of Obama's for pulling out, then disregarding the countries direction?
    According to Leon Penetta, Obama's former Secretary of Defense, it's on Obama:

    Fmr. Defense Secretary blames Obama - CNN.com
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  6. #16
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Many of those countries peoples are not favorable to our version of secular gov't and rule. They were operating on the highest level they probably could, before we invaded or encouraged all this change. The U.S. trying to reinvent the globe in it's own image is a little ridiculous and not working. If we didn't need the oil resources, and they had no capabilities of attacking us directly with weapons, other than some criminal terrorist attacks, we'd have been better off to leave them alone. We're definitely in it now, and not sure how to fight.
    Sociologically poorly designed systems of government will always lead to poor results. Also it takes a long time to learn how a system works. So you have to stay a long time for the system to become stable. The more complicated the chosen Instrument for government is and the less force used to keep the direction in place, the longer this period will take. But there is no real question of whether democratic or systems at least similar to democracy are better or not, once a certain level of education and income is reached. But the transition is not always easy.

  7. #17
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    According to Leon Penetta, Obama's former Secretary of Defense, it's on Obama:

    Fmr. Defense Secretary blames Obama - CNN.com
    He basically said Obama snatched defeat from the jaws of victory? Though it's possible that a small contingency left behind might of helped, there's no way of telling if they could've prevented it. ISIS started out and was based in Syria, then they spread so fast, with no resistance from the Iraqi army. I believe leaving al-Maliki as PM so long was the real problem, but he was freely elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Sociologically poorly designed systems of government will always lead to poor results. Also it takes a long time to learn how a system works. So you have to stay a long time for the system to become stable. The more complicated the chosen Instrument for government is and the less force used to keep the direction in place, the longer this period will take. But there is no real question of whether democratic or systems at least similar to democracy are better or not, once a certain level of education and income is reached. But the transition is not always easy.
    We'll never turn those people into any kind of democracy in the near future. We've been fighting over there for a decade and it hasn't happened. The whole ideology of spreading our governing concept to a fundamentally religious people is not sound reasoning.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #18
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    ...
    We'll never turn those people into any kind of democracy in the near future. We've been fighting over there for a decade and it hasn't happened. The whole ideology of spreading our governing concept to a fundamentally religious people is not sound reasoning.
    Germany was occupied for 50 years and is still more a popular bureaucracy than democracy. Culture is a very persistent thing. You are right there. That is why it is not the responsibility of one country to spread democracy by force. It must be a communal responsibility and serviced by the UN. That requires changing the UN considerably. But that must be done in any event, if we want to avoid a couple of Billions dead in a war later in this century.

  9. #19
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Germany was occupied for 50 years and is still more a popular bureaucracy than democracy. Culture is a very persistent thing. You are right there. That is why it is not the responsibility of one country to spread democracy by force. It must be a communal responsibility and serviced by the UN. That requires changing the UN considerably. But that must be done in any event, if we want to avoid a couple of Billions dead in a war later in this century.

    I simply don't see the imperative for us to push democracy, period. A big portion of the world has some form of it already and it's proven to work, so if they want change, let it come slowly and naturally, without the destabilizing affects that our involvement has been creating. Obama tried to extricate us out of that quagmire but it pulled us back in.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #20
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    Re: Who's Responsible for ISIS?

    If you're a "librul" hating right-wing hack - everything bad that happens is Obama's/Democrats fault.

    If you're a "****servatard" hating left-wing jackass - everything bad that happens is Bush's/Republicans fault.

    It all depends on the poltical binders one wears as who they place the blame on.

    I've stated in numerous threads now, the POTUS (regardless of who it is) can't control or influence what happens in Middle Eastern countries.
    Nor any other foreign country for that matter.

    The POTUS (regardless of who it is) is not the dictator of the entire planet. What individuals, and groups of individuals do in foreign lands is completely out of the realm of reasonable control when it comes to who the POTUS is.

    Child sex-slave trafficing has been going on for decades, if not centuries. America's fault? What about genocide in African nations? Is that America's fault too?

    Those who are diametrically opposed to whoever is in control of the White House will blame that person for anything, and everything imaginable. Sun spots. Hurricanes. Earthquakes.
    It doesn't matter just as long as the finger of blame points to the person they "hate".

    It's truly a destructive and divisive aspect of politics in America now. Rather childish in my opinion too.

    I heard the North Koreans were digging tunnels under South Korea and heading for Seoul.
    Yep - surely must be the fault of whichever political party you currently despise.

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