• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Income Inequality

What should be done to battle income inequality in the USA?

  • Do not intervene

    Votes: 39 53.4%
  • Yes, do intervene

    Votes: 34 46.6%

  • Total voters
    73
:lol:

Gimme demonstrates that the top 10% have provided far more value added to production over the past few decades, and then asks why gains in productivity gains haven't resulted in equally dramatic increases in lower-value income wages.

610_900.jpg

Can you give us some examples of individuals in that 10% who have provided equal value for the millions (or billions in some cases) they have extracted from the economy, and if so, why they might be drawing income several orders of magnitude above what their equivalents earned just a few years ago?
 
Anyways, do you have some kind of argument for why we shouldn't try to fix the problem with people being paid less than they're worth? Or what? It seems like you're just interested in some sort of weird allocation of blame thing or something, but I don't see why whatever all that is about would mean we shouldn't fix the economic issue, would it?

First of all ... why would we suggest we "shouldn't try to fix the problem", when we don't even believe it is a problem?

Secondly ... by what criteria do you measure "people being paid less than they're worth"? How do you define "worth"?

What issue?
 
Can you give us some examples of individuals in that 10% who have provided equal value for the millions (or billions in some cases) they have extracted from the economy, and if so, why they might be drawing income several orders of magnitude above what their equivalents earned just a few years ago?

Conversely, why shouldn't they?
 
First of all ... why would we suggest we "shouldn't try to fix the problem", when we don't even believe it is a problem?

Secondly ... by what criteria do you measure "people being paid less than they're worth"? How do you define "worth"?

What issue?

Already explained exhaustively. Just page back through the thread if you missed it.
 
Absolutely right that competition is the lifeblood of capitalism and we don't have nearly enough of it.

That said, it isn't really regulatory hurdles that create big barriers to entry.

On what do you base this conclusion?
 
What intervention is being suggested?

Stay in school, get a good (free) education, choose a profession or trade or skill that is in demand, work towards that (college, apprenticeship, trade school, etc) and work your way up into a career.

IMO too many people graduate HS or dont even bother and then 'just let life happen,' believing good jobs will fall in their laps? Why? How? That's a fantasy. I blame parents and school guidance counselors for not staying on top of kids LOOOOOONGGG before graduation (like, years) to figure this out. And more parent's responsibilty than guidance counselor's.
 
A worker is worth their productivity. However much they increase the revenues of their employer, minus all non-labor expenses, that is how much they should be compensated if the market is functioning properly.

Is the work worth the productivity, if there is too much labor and capital is in short supply? That is, what is causing the present unhappiness.
 
Paying them less than their level of productivity. In order for there to be profits, employees must, by definition, be paid less than the value they bring to the endeavor.

Are you referring to the marginal level of productivity?
Anyway, the problem at present is that there are too many workers in the States (though, it is getting better again) because consumers have been buying 10 Cents t-shirts from Bangladesh and the factories have been opening up there or in China. If wages in the US are lifted, the situation will get worse, because they will buy more stuff out there, capital will build factories there and fewer jobs will be enough productive to justify the pay. If you want Americans to be employed and make money, lower the wage.
 
Can you give us some examples of individuals in that 10% who have provided equal value for the millions (or billions in some cases) they have extracted from the economy, and if so, why they might be drawing income several orders of magnitude above what their equivalents earned just a few years ago?

Firstly, the strongest piece of evidence that they have provided not equal but in fact greater value than their income (which isn't extracted, as though the economy had a fixed pot of money to pay out and a dollar to steve meant a dollar from joe) is that they were paid thus for what they were selling. If I sell you an apple for a dollar, that indicates that you valued the apple in my store more than you valued the dollar in your pocket, and that therefore I have, in fact, provided greater than a dollars' worth of value for the dollar I have made.

Secondly, sure I can. Steve Jobs. Bill Gates. The people who invent, who innovate, who apply technology and knowledge in new ways in order to make entire organizations - entire industries more productive.
 
Neither party has presented a reform bill to the president. Congress, as I said, has done squat about illegal immigration in decades and that, of course, includes both parties. When I said that the person with the most money has the most clout, I was referring not to a political party, but to the deep pocket political donors that contribute to both Republicans and Democrats.

The mantra that it's the Dems that want open borders and the Reps want to control immigration falls flat when you go back to the time, not so long ago, when the Republicans controlled both houses and the WhiteHouse.

Are these facts wrong. I know Obama is a pet of your. Just asking


On October 26, 2006, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) into law stating, “This bill will help protect the American people. This bill will make our borders more secure. It is an important step toward immigration reform."[1]

The bill was introduced on Sep. 13, 2006 by Peter T. King (R-NY). In the House of Representatives, the Fence Act passed 283 -138 on September 14, 2006. On September 29, 2006 – the Fence Act passed in the Senate 80 -19.

The Secure Fence Act of 2006’s goal is to help secure America’s borders to decrease illegal entry, drug trafficking, and security threats by building 700 miles (1,100 km) of physical barriers along the Mexico-United States border. Additionally, the law authorizes more vehicle barriers, checkpoints, and lighting as well as authorizes the Department of Homeland Security to increase the use of advanced technology like cameras, satellites, and unmanned aerial vehicles to reinforce infrastructure at the border.[1] Congress approved $1.2 billion in a separate homeland security spending bill to bankroll the fence, though critics say this is $4.8 billion less than what’s likely needed to get it built.

Secure Fence Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now who killed building the fence? Just asking
 
It isn't that profit in and of itself is bad per se, what is bad is charging more than the economically optimal price. That point where those S and D lines cross- that's the best place for the price to be economically. That's where the most widgets are produced the most efficiently. If you raise the price above that point in order to get more profit, then less widgets are sold and they are sold at a higher, less efficient, price.

Again, this isn't some crazy theory, this is the most fundamental basis of capitalism. Every conservative economist on the world agrees with this. Every economics 101 textbook in the country goes over this in the first chapter. In fact, it is pretty much the one and only economic concept that pretty much everybody knows- supply and demand. That's what the supply and demand graph is about.

I can tell you've never owned a business or managed one. The optimal price is what the market will bare that brings in the most profit. That is what sets the price point. When demand is high the business will raise it's price to maximize profit. If I sold one widget for a million dollars but if I drop my price to 900,000 and sell ten of them and my cost is 750,000 what price am I going to put on that widget.

I quote you as saying "The profits an owner takes are waste? To you, but not an owner of a company. Then you go onto say "They are created by charging customers more than the things you sell them are worth" Sorry but that is how you make a profit and the more profit a company makes the more expansion the company can make and the owners can by more yachts and planes and more toys. Then you say "paying employees less than they are worth." Sorry they are worth what the market dictates. Then you say "It's a business failing to perform well." You are wrong again, the higher the profit the more successful it is. I am going to use one example of high profit - Microsoft. And you say Microsoft, as a business, is failing to perform well. What planet are you on.
 
I can tell you've never owned a business or managed one. The optimal price is what the market will bare that brings in the most profit. That is what sets the price point. When demand is high the business will raise it's price to maximize profit. If I sold one widget for a million dollars but if I drop my price to 900,000 and sell ten of them and my cost is 750,000 what price am I going to put on that widget.

I quote you as saying "The profits an owner takes are waste? To you, but not an owner of a company. Then you go onto say "They are created by charging customers more than the things you sell them are worth" Sorry but that is how you make a profit and the more profit a company makes the more expansion the company can make and the owners can by more yachts and planes and more toys. Then you say "paying employees less than they are worth." Sorry they are worth what the market dictates. Then you say "It's a business failing to perform well." You are wrong again, the higher the profit the more successful it is. I am going to use one example of high profit - Microsoft. And you say Microsoft, as a business, is failing to perform well. What planet are you on.


here here....i second your comments


microsoft
google
apple

look at any profitable company

lots of employees making a good living, and the owners/investors making a good return on their investment

win/win/win......

i dont care about your macro economics bull****....

i care about my 140 employees, myself, and my owner

if that makes me a bad guy....so be it

and to us, profit is NOT a dirty word
 
Firstly, the strongest piece of evidence that they have provided not equal but in fact greater value than their income (which isn't extracted, as though the economy had a fixed pot of money to pay out and a dollar to steve meant a dollar from joe) is that they were paid thus for what they were selling. If I sell you an apple for a dollar, that indicates that you valued the apple in my store more than you valued the dollar in your pocket, and that therefore I have, in fact, provided greater than a dollars' worth of value for the dollar I have made.

Secondly, sure I can. Steve Jobs. Bill Gates. The people who invent, who innovate, who apply technology and knowledge in new ways in order to make entire organizations - entire industries more productive.

Your argument is because it is so, it is right. It is right exactly because it is so. No offense, but there isn't an awful lot of content in this statement.

But of course, I get your drift. You are repeating the mantra of the right, that insists on the concept of perfect markets, magically performing their tricks in accordance with the greater imperatives of the cosmos. Marketeers can be tricky, but not quite in that sense.

The world is far more complex than the comic book scenarios presented by the Tea Party, or similar groups. People often extract money from the economy, not because of some cosmically calculated formula, but simply because they can. That's why you can read about hedge fund managers getting paid billions, when a few years back, such would just be considered modest bankers, plying their craft and earning a middle class income. CEO salaries have rocketed up in recent years, and are now astronomical in comparison to the pre-greed, pre-conservative backlash era of a few decades ago. What did they provide for the economy for this extra fortune? Nothing, as far as any reputable economist is able to discern. In fact, some earned these windfalls while driving their companies into the ground. Here the cosmos did not intervene to tell those naughty lads to put back the money. It has been absent in all other cases of consequence also, sorry to report.

When you attempt to flog your apples, you may or may not be doing any favors, or contributing anything except to yourself. Maybe your apples are all there are to eat, and people are going to pay a dollar even though they were worth ten cents yesterday. Maybe you have tricked them into believing that your apples are the only thing on offer for the next twenty miles, and so are worth more than they "should" be. Maybe there are lots of apples around, but people haven't seen them, and if they did, they would have bought those. Maybe they did see them, but misread the signs. Maybe they have been misinformed that apples are essential for good health, after reading an exploitative book by another entrepreneur, and so pay more than they should for your apples. The concept that consumer choice is enough to drive a modern economy in just the right fashion is nonsense, except of course if there is an underlying reason to promote such a view. There is, and it is one that promotes the interests of the most affluent in society. I'm sure you can guess.

Bill Gates,if you read his biography, made his money not because no one on the planet knew as much about computers as he did, but because he did come up with a timely idea, around the same time several others did, but he beat them to the punch by having a relatively well connected and affluent family. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Steve Jobs is dead, but surprise, Apple continues to come up with innovative ideas, and sells well. In fact, the world is awash in nerdy young fellows dreaming up all manner of new apps and new methods of improving the industry. Some provide this for free on the net, others make some money at it. A few get lucky.

The question remains. What value do those who are drawing an income of many millions, or billions, provide for society? If they were modest bankers or businessmen a few years ago, why is their compensation a thousand times more, for doing the same things? Where does earning power merge with legal embezzlement?
 
The question remains. What value do those who are drawing an income of many millions, or billions, provide for society? If they were modest bankers or businessmen a few years ago, why is their compensation a thousand times more, for doing the same things? Where does earning power merge with legal embezzlement?


why do you care what some investment banker who you will never meet, makes?

the brass ring is out there for EVERYONE......not everyone will reach it, but everyone can be successful to a point

i have built a nice nest egg....something to pass on to my kids

who hopefully will add to it, and their kids will even be better off

isnt that the legacy we want for our families....for our kids to have it better than we did?

if not.....what is the point?
 
The question remains. What value do those who are drawing an income of many millions, or billions, provide for society? If they were modest bankers or businessmen a few years ago, why is their compensation a thousand times more, for doing the same things? Where does earning power merge with legal embezzlement?

They are entitled to make as much as they can. Or is there some law that limits what a person can make in a lifetime? Where does earning power merge with legal embezzlement, it never does. There is no such thing as legal embezzlement, only in the eyes of someone like you that demonize those that have wealth. The only problem is you wishing you were the one with the wealth. Being you don't have it you demonize those that do and call them embezzlers.
 
Anyways, do you have some kind of argument for why we shouldn't try to fix the problem with people being paid less than they're worth? Or what? It seems like you're just interested in some sort of weird allocation of blame thing or something, but I don't see why whatever all that is about would mean we shouldn't fix the economic issue, would it?

What Problem, market forces determine the value of a working hour or on a piece basis per the job description. In a growing economy, businesses are expanding and jobs are on the rise thus wages are on the rise as there are fewer people to fill those jobs. Simple concept that needs no meddling, in fact on the other side there are those that complain that some make too much money. Of course in a liberals mind they want to demonize the rich and reward the unsuccessful. Meaning you make to much money and you should make more, it's called redistribution of wealth. If we don't have to much of that already.
 
What Problem, market forces determine the value of a working hour or on a piece basis per the job description.

No, you're missing what I'm saying. Market forces are supposed to determine wages. Wages are supposed to automatically follow productivity. But they aren't. Wages are basically staying static while productivity shoots up. That isn't supposed to be possible in a capitalist economy if things work like the models, but it is happening and has been for like 30 years now. What I want is to figure out why it isn't working any more and figure out how we can get back to having the market determine wages again because that would mean a radical increase in everybody's wages.
 
I can tell you've never owned a business or managed one. The optimal price is what the market will bare that brings in the most profit. That is what sets the price point. When demand is high the business will raise it's price to maximize profit. If I sold one widget for a million dollars but if I drop my price to 900,000 and sell ten of them and my cost is 750,000 what price am I going to put on that widget.

I quote you as saying "The profits an owner takes are waste? To you, but not an owner of a company. Then you go onto say "They are created by charging customers more than the things you sell them are worth" Sorry but that is how you make a profit and the more profit a company makes the more expansion the company can make and the owners can by more yachts and planes and more toys. Then you say "paying employees less than they are worth." Sorry they are worth what the market dictates. Then you say "It's a business failing to perform well." You are wrong again, the higher the profit the more successful it is. I am going to use one example of high profit - Microsoft. And you say Microsoft, as a business, is failing to perform well. What planet are you on.

You just don't seem to be familiar with economics. You're missing many of the most basic concepts of capitalism completely. I explained it the best I can and that didn't seem to help, so I don't know what else I can do. Maybe you ought to just take an evening class or something?
 
Is the work worth the productivity, if there is too much labor and capital is in short supply? That is, what is causing the present unhappiness.

Oh, no, quite the opposite. We are drowning in capital. That's why we keep having bubbles- the rich are so overstuffed with money that they need to invest somewhere that every crackpot half baked startup out there gets tens of millions of dollars. What we're starving for at present is revenues. We have plenty of capital, plenty of labor, but not enough customers. The reason for that is because the middle class drives revenues and the middle class is being screwed out of its share of the growth.
 
They are entitled to make as much as they can. Or is there some law that limits what a person can make in a lifetime? Where does earning power merge with legal embezzlement, it never does. There is no such thing as legal embezzlement, only in the eyes of someone like you that demonize those that have wealth. The only problem is you wishing you were the one with the wealth. Being you don't have it you demonize those that do and call them embezzlers.

The question is not people making what they can, but under what circumstances this is best for society at large. Some people "can" make obscene amounts of money, given their leverage. Vladimir Putin, for example, has no doubt made large amounts of money, because he can, in his capitalist system, but that doesn't mean that is best for Russian society. The Walton family has made massive amounts of money, but any reasonable sociological or economic analysis of their efforts is going to produce, at best, pretty mixed reviews of what this has done to American society. People can make what they want, but it must come under the scrutiny of the people, or else you have a corporate anarchy, only steps away from places like Somalia. The right wing in American politics wants to insist (urged on by the desires of the one percent) on a child-like view of the world, in which all good boys deserve favours, and only the best win out in the end, for purely their own ends, not for yours.
 
That was what the rest of my post explained, no? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

Well you acknowledged one heavily regulated industry (insurance) and then talked about anti-monopolistic regulations (valid point as that is necessary for competition), but on what else can we conclude or generalize that regulations do not pose barriers to entry in other industries? Regulation can be varying degrees of necessary and yet at the same time obviously create barriers to entry. I think there are greater barriers to entry in many areas than you acknowledged.
 
Are these facts wrong. I know Obama is a pet of your. Just asking


On October 26, 2006, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) into law stating, “This bill will help protect the American people. This bill will make our borders more secure. It is an important step toward immigration reform."[1]

The bill was introduced on Sep. 13, 2006 by Peter T. King (R-NY). In the House of Representatives, the Fence Act passed 283 -138 on September 14, 2006. On September 29, 2006 – the Fence Act passed in the Senate 80 -19.

The Secure Fence Act of 2006’s goal is to help secure America’s borders to decrease illegal entry, drug trafficking, and security threats by building 700 miles (1,100 km) of physical barriers along the Mexico-United States border. Additionally, the law authorizes more vehicle barriers, checkpoints, and lighting as well as authorizes the Department of Homeland Security to increase the use of advanced technology like cameras, satellites, and unmanned aerial vehicles to reinforce infrastructure at the border.[1] Congress approved $1.2 billion in a separate homeland security spending bill to bankroll the fence, though critics say this is $4.8 billion less than what’s likely needed to get it built.

Secure Fence Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now who killed building the fence? Just asking


First, I'm not wrong.
Second, no Obama is not a "pet of mine". That's absurd.
Third, the border fence is an expensive boondoggle that will never work.
Fourth, the Republicans had control of the WH and both houses, and did squat to end illegal immigration back during the Bush Administration.
Fifth, it was the arch conservative, Ronald Reagan, who actually signed amnesty into law.
 
Oh, no, quite the opposite. We are drowning in capital. That's why we keep having bubbles- the rich are so overstuffed with money that they need to invest somewhere that every crackpot half baked startup out there gets tens of millions of dollars. What we're starving for at present is revenues. We have plenty of capital, plenty of labor, but not enough customers. The reason for that is because the middle class drives revenues and the middle class is being screwed out of its share of the growth.

I can't go along with your definition of capital. Capital and money are very different animals, you see.
 
No, you're missing what I'm saying. Market forces are supposed to determine wages. Wages are supposed to automatically follow productivity. But they aren't. Wages are basically staying static while productivity shoots up. That isn't supposed to be possible in a capitalist economy if things work like the models, but it is happening and has been for like 30 years now. What I want is to figure out why it isn't working any more and figure out how we can get back to having the market determine wages again because that would mean a radical increase in everybody's wages.


question....do you follow productivity history?

has there been spikes in productivity before?

this may help you

Productivity improving technologies (historical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as more and more automation, and computers control the labor of the planet, productivity of course rises

and wages for those who work on those machines, programming them, fixing them, building them, also rise

but the non skilled wages...no they arent rising, nor will they

too many competing for the same cashier job, because that is all they can do (so why should a company pay them more than the job is worth?)

skills pay the bills......remember it.....it isnt going to change

nothing you can say, or do that will change that fact

so the best thing we can do, is to provide a chance for people to improve themselves.....educations, trade schools, etc

those opportunities are out there......but the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink applies

they have to WANT to improve, and they have to make the effort to do whatever it takes to make it happen
 
Back
Top Bottom