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Income Inequality

What should be done to battle income inequality in the USA?

  • Do not intervene

    Votes: 39 53.4%
  • Yes, do intervene

    Votes: 34 46.6%

  • Total voters
    73
I think that if someone was really concerned about income inequality of Americans then the first thing they would want to do is crack down on illegal immigration and if needed restrict legal immigration. Because if there is a long line of people ready to replace you at a moment's notice then you become less valuable to your employer. When the labor pool is over flowing employers can offer lower wages, no raises or any other benefits. When the labor pool is not over flowing you not only have a better chance of getting a job your employer will offer you better pay, raises and other benefits. The law of supply and demand also applies to the labor market.

Another thing someone can do about income inequlity is pull out of harmful trade treaties that cost Americans their jobs. I realize that many checked pants republicans have their lips for firmly wrapped around the cocks of business owners in order to get that money. But most other Americans realize that America should make its own things and not be at the mercy of other countries to make our things. There is also the fact that buying all those foreign made goods like the pockets of those foreign governments which aids in increasing their military might and thus becoming a potential threat to our country.

So blame the Mexicans? Lol no thanks. The biggest disparity is between the top one percent and everyone else. The erosion of the middle class is a problem, and has nothing to do withb Mexico
 
So blame the Mexicans? Lol no thanks.


I prefer to blame every politician who caters to pro-illegal dirtbags.

The biggest disparity is between the top one percent and everyone else. The erosion of the middle class is a problem, and has nothing to do withb Mexico
Contrary to popular illegals do more than just pick tomatoes. They work in construction, factories and many other jobs that are well paying or used to be well paying.Again the law of supply and demand applies to labor.
 
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It isn't Walmart. Go find me some AMerican made products to buy ANYWHERE. It's not easy to do. The finest clothing stores are selling Chinese crap.

If you can't find or are unwilling to put in the effort necessary to find American-made products (it is possible to buy american-made products for many items. I know because I do it as much as I possibly can) then buy that Chinese made crap at locally owned stores that pay decent wages, not at a huge mega corporation that uses the welfare system to subsidize their profits.

By the way, a simple google search is all that's required to find some american made products:

Made in the USA Products Directory
 
Plenty of rational and reasonable arguments can be made against raising the minimum wage. For one thing, what works in Sweden might not work in a country 20 times as large with many more global responsibilities, built on a different economic model.

However, to say that Sweden is falling apart is ignorant and doesn't reflect real life. Sweden is a very nice country. Likewise, to say that someone's argument is wrong just because they're an "annoying European" is childish in that it fails to address the actual argument that person is making and simply seeks to put them in a box, based solely on their nationality, where nothing they say could ever be correct.

I think we should all strive for free and open debate, for freedom of expression and ideas, and may the best ideas win based on their own merit. We should not base our opinions based on prejudices we might have against certain nationalities.

That's the point. Saying we should do something simply because someone else does it is on the level of a 5 year old.

Sweden has very high socialistic taxes. While the geography may be nice, the politics aren't. I didn't claim someone was wrong because they're an annoying European. I claim those saying we should do something because Europe does it are annoying because they make that claim. Like I've said, someone arguing from that point has no merit.
 
Well according to the numbers you would be wrong. And you can be starving without dieing. Starving means to suffer greatly from hunger as well as to be dieing from hunger. many did back then, and still more do today. I know plenty of people I am sure are starving now. Not to death, but they suffer greatly from hunger everyday.

IMO (given your stated views) you were not and do not pay attention to such things, that in fact you probably try to turn a blind eye, as many do.

I was alive is not proof.

What's your religion? Seriously what is it? I am agnostic.

I'll take "I was alive" as stated by Turtle Dude over something you read in a book yet never witnessed then.

I have a solution for you if you see someone starving. Take them to eat, buy their groceries, and take them in. That would be the type proof I need from those who claim they are compassionate. However, having the mindset that the rest of us should do it a certain way because bleeding hearts want to do it that way isn't proof nor is it compassionate.
 
The argument is that MW has declined in real terms since 1978 and coincides with that quintile's overall wage declines from the same time frame.

When skills now are on the same level as skills then, those having the same low level of skills have no argument about expecting more. If they want their incomes to grow or even maintain, let them grow their skill level. That's what many of us did and the benefits show because of it. If they would spend half as much time doing something to better themselves as they do bitching about being handed a higher wage, the problems you say exist would go away. As it stands, what we have now is two groups. Those willing to earn a better wage and those who want a better one handed to them.
 
Of course it has....

I just received a $6,000 MERIT pay increase because my employer values what I offer. That means I've proven my place. As a result, I have taken on more responsibilities. If minimum wage was to go up to $15/hour like fastfood workers want, they would be more than doubling their pay for absolutely no more contribution. In life, there are two groups. Those willing to better themselves and earn what they get and those who think it is owed to them simply because they breath.
 
That isn't the argument at hand, the argument is that wages have declined in real terms for the lowest quintile since 1980, have barely risen for the rest while the top quintiles have seen very large income gains.

This is the result of various policies.

Ever thought that the lowest quintile has also been the least to improve their skills? No you haven't. Those at the top aren't at the top because they sat around whining about not making enough. They did something about it.
 
When should growing inequality concern us? This is a moral and political question. It is also an economic one. It is increasingly recognised that, beyond a certain point, inequality will be a source of significant economic ills.

The US – both the most important high-income economy and much the most unequal – is providing a test bed for the economic impact of inequality. The results are worrying.
This realisation has now spread to institutions that would not normally be accused of socialism. A report written by the chief US economist of Standard & Poor’s, and another from Morgan Stanley, agree that inequality is not only rising but having damaging effects on the US economy.
According to the Federal Reserve, the upper 3 per cent of the income distribution received 30.5 per cent of total incomes in 2013. The next 7 per cent received just 16.8 per cent. This left barely over half of total incomes to the remaining 90 per cent. The upper 3 per cent was also the only group to have enjoyed a rising share in incomes since the early 1990s. Since 2010, median family incomes fell, while the mean rose. Inequality keeps rising. The Morgan Stanley study lists among causes of the rise in inequality: the growing proportion of poorly paid and insecure low-skilled jobs; the rising wage premium for educated people; and the fact that tax and spending policies are less redistributive than they used to be a few decades ago.
Thus, in 2012, says the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the US ranked highest among the high-income countries in the share of relatively low-paying jobs. Moreover, the bottom quintile of the income distribution received only 36 per cent of federal transfer payments in 2010, down from 54 per cent in 1979.

Regressive payroll taxes, which cost the poor proportionally more than the rich, are projected to raise 32 per cent of federal revenue in fiscal year 2015, against 46 per cent for federal income tax, the burden of which falls more on higher earners.
Also important are huge increases in the relative pay of executives, together with the shift in incomes from labour to capital. The Federal Reserve’s policies have also benefited the relatively well off; it is trying to raise the prices of assets which are overwhelmingly owned by the rich.
These reports bring out two economic consequences of rising inequality: weak demand and lagging progress in raising educational levels.
The argument on demand is that, up to the time of the crisis, many of those who were not enjoying rising real incomes borrowed instead. Rising house prices made this possible. By late 2007, debt peaked at 135 per cent of disposable incomes.

Then came the crash. Left with huge debts and unable to borrow more, people on low incomes have been forced to spend less. Withdrawal of mortgage equity, financed by borrowing, has collapsed. The result has been an exceptionally weak recovery of consumption.



American education has also deteriorated. It is the only high-income country whose 25-34 year olds are no better educated than its 55-64 year olds. This is partly because other countries have caught up on the US, which pioneered mass college education. It is also because children from poor backgrounds are handicapped in completing college.
The S&P report notes that for the poorest households college graduation rates increased by only about 4 percentage points between the generation born in the early 1960s and that born in the early 1980s. The graduation rate for the wealthiest households increased by almost 20 percentage points over the same period. Yet, without a college degree, the chances of upward mobility are now quite limited. As a result, children of prosperous families are likely to stay well-off and children of poor families likely to remain poor.


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/8b41...lf/feed//product&siteedition=uk#axzz3EqFDdMtR

That's a pretty good summary of recent economic history, isn't it? Why should we be concerned by income disparity? Because the growing number of poor don't create much of a market, which cuts into profits and higher level employment, which in turn creates less of a market, and so on. It's a vicious circle. So, yes, all of us need to be concerned, not just the people who need food stamps to survive.

The tax structure, far from redistributing in come to the less well off, has the opposite effect.

We need an educated populace. Having a higher level of education is a benefit for all of us, and yet the cost of a college education keeps getting higher and higher. Bringing those costs down needs to be a high priority. Working your way through used to be the norm for the low income and lower middle class people. Today, it's no longer an option for most of us, who wind up with debt that continues literally for decades.
 
The argument is that MW has declined in real terms since 1978 and coincides with that quintile's overall wage declines from the same time frame.
When skills now are on the same level as skills then, those having the same low level of skills have no argument about expecting more. If they want their incomes to grow or even maintain, let them grow their skill level
The essence of your argument is, if your wage declines because of inflation, you have no cause for a raise.
 
The argument is that MW has declined in real terms since 1978 and coincides with that quintile's overall wage declines from the same time frame.The essence of your argument is, if your wage declines because of inflation, you have no cause for a raise.

The essence of my argument is you don't get paid for existence and if you wage declines due to inflation that doesn't automatically mean you are owed a raise. Raises are earned. If you want to talk cost of living increase, that's a different concept although it's not an automatic thing either.
 
if you wage declines due to inflation that doesn't automatically mean you are owed a raise. Raises are earned. If you want to talk cost of living increase, that's a different concept although it's not an automatic thing either.
Um, cost of living adjustment is used primarily to determine differing costs between locations. But the main point that I wanted to emphasize is that you are in fact not going to give a worker a raise or change your wages due to inflation.
 
Um, cost of living adjustment is used primarily to determine differing costs between locations. But the main point that I wanted to emphasize is that you are in fact not going to give a worker a raise or change your wages due to inflation.

I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.
 
I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.

Do you feel that whatever raises you get are an accurate reflection of your merit? For example, I have no idea what kind of work you do, but do you have a sense of how much revenue you create for your employer? If so, do you feel that the portion of that revenue that goes to you, compared to the portion that goes to the owner, is reasonable?

In a free market, if you generate (after all expenses other than your compensation) $100 an hour for your employer and your employer pays you $80 an hour, it would make sense for one of their competitors to hire you for $81, thus increasing their profits by $19. Then another competitor should offer you $82 to increase their profits by $18, and so on until competition over your labor has raised your compensation (including benefits and whatnot) to $99. That is how it is supposed to work. In fact, that is one of the main reasons a capitalist system is a good idea- people get paid roughly what they're worth. And, for most of US history, that is exactly what did happen. Up until about the mid 1970s, you would see a tiny blip in productivity where the average after expenses productivity would go up from say $45/hour to $46/hour and within a few months, the average compensation would go up from say $42 to $43 or so. In the relatively rare cases where productivity fell slightly, income fell the same amount. Companies have always taken profits, so the compensation was always a bit below the productivity, but only a couple/few bucks and hour.

But that stopped happening. Since the mid 1970s, productivity has increased roughly 300%, but income has only increased about 40% (both adjusted for inflation). Today, our average compensation is less than half of our after expenses (including after taxes) productivity.

So, while I love the idea of raises being driven by merit, that doesn't seem to be reality anymore. Seems to me like bargaining power rather than merit drive raises these days. Employers tend to have market positions or monopoly power that they can leverage to hold off competition for their employees and that gives them the leverage to dictate wages far below what the employees are actually worth. If we could return somehow to a situation where workers were again receiving something close to what they were worth, we would see the median income double or more. That would be amazing. But just pretending it already is happening doesn't get us there. We need to be thinking more creatively about how to even negotiating power back up and instill more competition.
 
I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.
I am not talking about COLA, I am talking about inflation and the lack of wage gains since the 1980's.



I believe that when workers have increased productivity and corporations have massive profits, those workers should share in the wealth generated. I believe that if workers face inflation, they should see increases in the min wage to reflect those cost increases. I believe that the rising levels of inequality due to nearly non-existent wage gains damages opportunities for workers to climb and damages the economy long term, and I have shown the evidence for this throughout my postings not only in this thread but throughout the forum.

You are simply relying on an extremist Randian libertarian viewpoint that will not accept the macro conditions and only focuses upon individual "moral" deficiencies. I have seen this time and again.
 
I believe that when workers have increased productivity and corporations have massive profits, those workers should share in the wealth generated.

I believe that if workers face inflation, they should see increases in the min wage to reflect those cost increases. I believe that the rising levels of inequality due to nearly non-existent wage gains damages opportunities for workers to climb and damages the economy long term, and I have shown the evidence for this throughout my postings not only in this thread but throughout the forum.

You are simply relying on an extremist Randian libertarian viewpoint that will not accept the macro conditions and only focuses upon individual "moral" deficiencies. I have seen this time and again.

Well, I can see we have identified the root of the problem ... you have ridiculous beliefs. The workers were paid to do a job ... they did it ... they got paid. Sounds like a completed business deal to me.

Now, if you want to talk about raising the cost of doing the next job, we can negotiate. Of course, that would leave me free to negotiate with other labor sources, as well.
 
Well, I can see we have identified the root of the problem ... you have ridiculous beliefs. The workers were paid to do a job ... they did it ... they got paid. Sounds like a completed business deal to me.

Now, if you want to talk about raising the cost of doing the next job, we can negotiate. Of course, that would leave me free to negotiate with other labor sources, as well.
Uh...that IS part of the problem, the negotiating powers of US workers has declined greatly since 1980 which is why wage gains have not come, which is why the top quintile has been able to capture the income gains instead.

Duh.

And as Piketty has pointed out, this is going to get worse, there is no incentive for those in control of capital to pay more....so the only solution is to capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute.
 
Uh...that IS part of the problem, the negotiating powers of US workers has declined greatly since 1980 which is why wage gains have not come, which is why the top quintile has been able to capture the income gains instead.

Duh.

And as Piketty has pointed out, this is going to get worse, there is no incentive for those in control of capital to pay more....so the only solution is to capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute.

"... capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute ..."

Pretty sure that's what they call theft these days ...

The truth is much simpler ... labor is less motivated to negotiate en masse because they don't want to risk the pretty good deal they've got now. Unions well recognize that forcing a confrontation will, in all likelihood, mean the end of their influence.
 
"... capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute ..."

Pretty sure that's what they call theft these days ...
You are showing your Randian colors, "taxation is theft".



The truth is much simpler ... labor is less motivated to negotiate en masse because they don't want to risk the pretty good deal they've got now. Unions well recognize that forcing a confrontation will, in all likelihood, mean the end of their influence.
Yeah, we have a pretty good deal right now, wage stagnate for 90% since 1980.

Wonderful.
 
Bump..
Sigh...lets explore some data:

piketty-saez-top10a.jpg



income-top10a.jpg



income-inequality4-14a.jpg
 
I am not talking about COLA, I am talking about inflation and the lack of wage gains since the 1980's.



I believe that when workers have increased productivity and corporations have massive profits, those workers should share in the wealth generated. I believe that if workers face inflation, they should see increases in the min wage to reflect those cost increases. I believe that the rising levels of inequality due to nearly non-existent wage gains damages opportunities for workers to climb and damages the economy long term, and I have shown the evidence for this throughout my postings not only in this thread but throughout the forum.

You are simply relying on an extremist Randian libertarian viewpoint that will not accept the macro conditions and only focuses upon individual "moral" deficiencies. I have seen this time and again.

Share the wealth my ass. You want the government to mandate it and sharing doens't come from a mandate. Tell you what, go into business and prove you believe what you say by paying someonen with $5/hour skills $20/hour. Until you do, butt out of what someone else should be paying an employee.
 
Do you feel that whatever raises you get are an accurate reflection of your merit? For example, I have no idea what kind of work you do, but do you have a sense of how much revenue you create for your employer? If so, do you feel that the portion of that revenue that goes to you, compared to the portion that goes to the owner, is reasonable?

In a free market, if you generate (after all expenses other than your compensation) $100 an hour for your employer and your employer pays you $80 an hour, it would make sense for one of their competitors to hire you for $81, thus increasing their profits by $19. Then another competitor should offer you $82 to increase their profits by $18, and so on until competition over your labor has raised your compensation (including benefits and whatnot) to $99. That is how it is supposed to work. In fact, that is one of the main reasons a capitalist system is a good idea- people get paid roughly what they're worth. And, for most of US history, that is exactly what did happen. Up until about the mid 1970s, you would see a tiny blip in productivity where the average after expenses productivity would go up from say $45/hour to $46/hour and within a few months, the average compensation would go up from say $42 to $43 or so. In the relatively rare cases where productivity fell slightly, income fell the same amount. Companies have always taken profits, so the compensation was always a bit below the productivity, but only a couple/few bucks and hour.

But that stopped happening. Since the mid 1970s, productivity has increased roughly 300%, but income has only increased about 40% (both adjusted for inflation). Today, our average compensation is less than half of our after expenses (including after taxes) productivity.

So, while I love the idea of raises being driven by merit, that doesn't seem to be reality anymore. Seems to me like bargaining power rather than merit drive raises these days. Employers tend to have market positions or monopoly power that they can leverage to hold off competition for their employees and that gives them the leverage to dictate wages far below what the employees are actually worth. If we could return somehow to a situation where workers were again receiving something close to what they were worth, we would see the median income double or more. That would be amazing. But just pretending it already is happening doesn't get us there. We need to be thinking more creatively about how to even negotiating power back up and instill more competition.

Actually, I do believe the $6000/year merit raise I received accurate reflects it. In order to get it, I actually have to do something first to earn. What you might find interesting is that I didn't have to bargain for it or provide any leverage. My employer came to me and said because of what I had done and what was expected of me, the amount if what I would be receiving above what I was making now.

The best way to have negotiating power is to offer something to the one doing the paying. If someone has such a low skill level that what they do is one step above what a monkey could be trained to do, they don't have any.

As for merit raises not being reality to you, I can tell you than handing someone a raise because they exist isn't reality. It's a handout without anything to tie it to.
 
Share the wealth my ass. You want the government to mandate it and sharing doens't come from a mandate.
I forgive you for not reading my previous posts....or even understanding the current posts where I say that it should be that workers have enough influence to get increases based on merit but that when it does not happen due to multiple policies that have limited influence then it has to happen via "mandate", otherwise you have civil and economic instability.



Tell you what, go into business and prove you believe what you say by paying someonen with $5/hour skills $20/hour. Until you do, butt out of what someone else should be paying an employee.
You keep falling back to your ever changing goalposts concerning individual bottom quintile individuals while failing to come to any sort of understanding of long term macro consequences of Randian supply side economics.
 
The problem there is so many people will view that as full blown socialism, which is akin to the boogey man.

That essentially what I argued in my recent thread.

But to them I ask: How is it socialist to simplify our tax code? How is it socialist to be able to keep the fruits of your labor? How is it socialist to pay for what you take?
 
I forgive you for not reading my previous posts....or even understanding the current posts where I say that it should be that workers have enough influence to get increases based on merit but that when it does not happen due to multiple policies that have limited influence then it has to happen via "mandate", otherwise you have civil and economic instability.



You keep falling back to your ever changing goalposts concerning individual bottom quintile individuals while failing to come to any sort of understanding of long term macro consequences of Randian supply side economics.

Workers do have enough influence to get raises based on merit. Your problem is that you think it's your place to determine what level those raises should be when it comes to another person's business. That you think the government should mandate it proves that Liberals believe if people don't do something to their standards, the government should make them.

What you fail to understand about either doing yourself by going into business what you demand others be even forced to do shows your nothing more than a good intentioned, do nothing loudmouth, bleeding heart Liberal that should either put up of STFU.
 
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