View Poll Results: What should be done to battle income inequality in the USA?

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  • Do not intervene

    47 51.09%
  • Yes, do intervene

    45 48.91%
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Thread: Income Inequality

  1. #821
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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Without exploitation, there can be no capitalism.
    Why did you choose the word exploitation? You feel that capitalism is treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work?

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Without exploitation, there can be no capitalism.
    There is no proof of that. When capitalism started out the relationship between capital and labor was stronger and inequality was in many ways less. Why? Well, one of the reasons was that capital had closer relationship with their workers didn't as of yet gain the ability to separate themselves from the daily occurrences of their workers. In effect, they didn't yet obtain the ability to go about their business and not directly interact with their workers.

    As time went on the relationship between capital and labor got worse, and not so much because because capital got greedy, but because the interaction between the two groups decreased which caused the friendship and companionship that was formed between capital and labor to become impaired. So like I said, the problem really isn't greed or wealth, but a problem with the relationship between the parties.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Re: The supply and demand for unskilled labor:

    Yes, the point has been made that the price of unskilled labor is set by supply and demand.

    Therefore, the motivation of the employers of unskilled labor is to keep the supply as high as possible.

    Now, that said, who is it that is really in favor of illegal immigration by unskilled workers?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    Why did you choose the word exploitation? You feel that capitalism is treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work?
    It was apt.

    Of course.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    It was apt.

    Of course.
    How and who exploited you unfairly for the work you've done?

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Well, waaaaaaay back in my yooot, there was a guy....


    Is this the stand you're gonna take?

    *edited from a double post.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    There is no proof of that. When capitalism started out the relationship between capital and labor was stronger and inequality was in many ways less. Why? Well, one of the reasons was that capital had closer relationship with their workers didn't as of yet gain the ability to separate themselves from the daily occurrences of their workers. In effect, they didn't yet obtain the ability to go about their business and not directly interact with their workers.

    As time went on the relationship between capital and labor got worse, and not so much because because capital got greedy, but because the interaction between the two groups decreased which caused the friendship and companionship that was formed between capital and labor to become impaired. So like I said, the problem really isn't greed or wealth, but a problem with the relationship between the parties.
    Of course there is, lest we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    This is a new take. Capital exploits labor because they're not friends anymore.

    Interesting.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Well, waaaaaaay back in my yooot, there was a guy....


    Is this the stand you're gonna take?

    *edited from a double post.
    I'm not taking a stand, you are. You are saying that capitalism only exists because people are exploited. I'm just asking you how you were exploited and by whom. I'll add, was that as a result of capitalism or are you saying that it happened because capitalism didn't prevent it?

    I believe that people can be exploited in any system, but capitalism is not a system based on exploitation.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are definitely not on this planet.LOL! Of course! We are in the midst of a sellers market, where workers are in short supply and are commanding high wages!

    Better yet, union membership is pushing wages to all time highs....I tell yah!!!
    If you choose to intentionally misinterpret what is said, I can think of no reason to continue discussion. To take one comment out of context is corrupt ... read it in its entirety, and get back to me.


    OMG! It is true! Labor has such a complete control of their market that unemployment is at ZERO PERCENT and threatens to go NEGATIVE!



    Seriously....did you just say in the same sentence "union demands codified into law" and "right to work"? RTW is a union busting method applied primarily for countering union organization in PRIVATE work sites, where those who pay no dues still enjoy union gains. It is the OPPOSITE of codifying union demands. WTF? The most important feature of a union is to cause higher wages for its members......and then to provide support during a strike, to cause a decent pension, to cause higher prevailing wages for non members...on and on.
    Once again, you choose to intentionally misinterpret. I clearly said that the reasons that unions were originally formed have been codified into law, thus negating many of the justifications for unions. The main remaining factor is collective bargaining. THAT is what I said .... I also said that labor causes its own problem. When the unions are not able to put together a strong enough package to attract members, it loses its bargaining position. If the union is strong enough to enforce collective bargaining, then employers have to make a simple decision ... can they accede to union demands and still make money, or do they just close the doors?

    Globalization was caused by containerization and the unwillingness to protect US jobs.
    Pretty simplistic ... and intentionally misleading. Those are factors, yes, but they are far from being the primary causative factors. They are simply convenient foils you can point to in order to avoid the reality. High labor costs, utility costs, excessive and onerous regulations, and taxes are the primary driving factors.

    My choices are simple ... I can make a shirt here in the US for $11, or I can make it in Thailand for $2.30 ... while I can sell the US shirt in the US for $18, and make a living, i can't take that $18 shirt overseas and sell it. So, I'm stuck in a single market. But, I can take that $2.30 shirt and sell it everywhere. Which one would you do?

    There is nothing like projection, it reveals so much about an individual. Where do you find US workers having so little pride in their work?By all means, show us where this manifests itself.It is really amazing to read a conservative, one who served this country, who is still supported by tax dollars from American workers, have so little regard for them.
    Gee, where do I find US workers having so little pride in their work? Take a look at your purchases next time ... shoddy workmanship is the norm, not the exception. But, where did I see this?

    Hmmmm ... I wonder if it was in the veneer mill that I worked in before I went in the service? You know, the one where the crews took turns napping, or spent half the night drag racing with forklifts. Or, maybe it was in the company I built after I got out of the service ... grew from 6 people to 304 workers before we sold it. Could it be the shoddy workmanship, the lack of productivity? Could it be the night janitor who had to sweep around the production line (for only $18/hour), but was caught smoking dope three times? (By the way ... the first time it happened, we fired him, and the union threatened to shut the plant down if we didn't reinstate him - THAT is what a union does for you). The last two time we sent him home (he was a safety hazard), and the union protested, and insisted we pay him his wages even though he wasn't even at work.

    Maybe it was the remodeling we had done on our home - you know, the one that the union shop said they could do for only $24,000. But, a Hispanic-run company said they could do it for $13,000 - and did a top notch job. You think it might be the lack of quality in American cars? It almost killed the whole industry ... foreign cars were built better and cheaper.

    The facts are simple ... the American worker has gotten lazier, less productive, more careless, and litigation happy. instead of striving to do a better job and be rewarded, they have tried to use politics to get what they want. While there are still plenty of quality workers out there, the weak links make the whole chain weak.

    The education system has virtually destroyed the productivity of the American workforce. We have to train them to do basic math skills, spend money to teach them to read schematics, or spend hours upon hours rewriting substandard quality reports. The quality of the American engineer is quickly becoming a farce. College graduates are coming to us almost functionally illiterate with only a cursory understanding of their basic area of supposed expertise. When we first started our company (1987), we planned on a 5 month acclimation period for new engineers. Today, that period is 15 months.

    It used to be a mark of pride that you were the best wood plank stacker in the whole company. Today, it's a mark of pride if you can get your paycheck without stacking a single wood plank.

    Take the time to watch the American workers where you work ... and then tell me that they are committed to maximum performance in support of corporate goals.

    I love how you conveniently drag out the flag in order to protest "unwillingness to protect US jobs". I'm reminded of something my old man used to tell me ... "You get what you give."
    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.
    - Orson Welles

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Of course there is, lest we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    This is a new take. Capital exploits labor because they're not friends anymore.

    Interesting.
    It's not really a new take. It's actually an old take based on historical study. The first time I saw it was by a historian that took note of the fact that capital in the early days of capitalism was commonly friends with their workers and would make great sacrifices for labor. I think the solution is in healing the relationship between capital and labor. What capitalists need to realize is that it is partnership and the welfare of their workers directly affects the growth and prosperity of the nation, which will in turn affect the well being of the capitalist. What labor needs to realize is that capital is not the enemy nor a competing force, but a partner and punishing capital will only punish themselves to a great effect. Do I think it will happen? No, but I don't think spreading the wealth around will ever work as it is only dealing with consequences of a poor relationship and not facing the relationship itself.

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