View Poll Results: What should be done to battle income inequality in the USA?

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  • Do not intervene

    47 51.09%
  • Yes, do intervene

    45 48.91%
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Thread: Income Inequality

  1. #761
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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    The argument is that MW has declined in real terms since 1978 and coincides with that quintile's overall wage declines from the same time frame.The essence of your argument is, if your wage declines because of inflation, you have no cause for a raise.
    The essence of my argument is you don't get paid for existence and if you wage declines due to inflation that doesn't automatically mean you are owed a raise. Raises are earned. If you want to talk cost of living increase, that's a different concept although it's not an automatic thing either.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative65 View Post
    if you wage declines due to inflation that doesn't automatically mean you are owed a raise. Raises are earned. If you want to talk cost of living increase, that's a different concept although it's not an automatic thing either.
    Um, cost of living adjustment is used primarily to determine differing costs between locations. But the main point that I wanted to emphasize is that you are in fact not going to give a worker a raise or change your wages due to inflation.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  3. #763
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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Um, cost of living adjustment is used primarily to determine differing costs between locations. But the main point that I wanted to emphasize is that you are in fact not going to give a worker a raise or change your wages due to inflation.
    I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative65 View Post
    I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.
    Do you feel that whatever raises you get are an accurate reflection of your merit? For example, I have no idea what kind of work you do, but do you have a sense of how much revenue you create for your employer? If so, do you feel that the portion of that revenue that goes to you, compared to the portion that goes to the owner, is reasonable?

    In a free market, if you generate (after all expenses other than your compensation) $100 an hour for your employer and your employer pays you $80 an hour, it would make sense for one of their competitors to hire you for $81, thus increasing their profits by $19. Then another competitor should offer you $82 to increase their profits by $18, and so on until competition over your labor has raised your compensation (including benefits and whatnot) to $99. That is how it is supposed to work. In fact, that is one of the main reasons a capitalist system is a good idea- people get paid roughly what they're worth. And, for most of US history, that is exactly what did happen. Up until about the mid 1970s, you would see a tiny blip in productivity where the average after expenses productivity would go up from say $45/hour to $46/hour and within a few months, the average compensation would go up from say $42 to $43 or so. In the relatively rare cases where productivity fell slightly, income fell the same amount. Companies have always taken profits, so the compensation was always a bit below the productivity, but only a couple/few bucks and hour.

    But that stopped happening. Since the mid 1970s, productivity has increased roughly 300%, but income has only increased about 40% (both adjusted for inflation). Today, our average compensation is less than half of our after expenses (including after taxes) productivity.

    So, while I love the idea of raises being driven by merit, that doesn't seem to be reality anymore. Seems to me like bargaining power rather than merit drive raises these days. Employers tend to have market positions or monopoly power that they can leverage to hold off competition for their employees and that gives them the leverage to dictate wages far below what the employees are actually worth. If we could return somehow to a situation where workers were again receiving something close to what they were worth, we would see the median income double or more. That would be amazing. But just pretending it already is happening doesn't get us there. We need to be thinking more creatively about how to even negotiating power back up and instill more competition.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative65 View Post
    I give RAISES based on merit and a COLA increase isn't automatic. Your problem is that you think it should be automatic based on existence.
    I am not talking about COLA, I am talking about inflation and the lack of wage gains since the 1980's.



    I believe that when workers have increased productivity and corporations have massive profits, those workers should share in the wealth generated. I believe that if workers face inflation, they should see increases in the min wage to reflect those cost increases. I believe that the rising levels of inequality due to nearly non-existent wage gains damages opportunities for workers to climb and damages the economy long term, and I have shown the evidence for this throughout my postings not only in this thread but throughout the forum.

    You are simply relying on an extremist Randian libertarian viewpoint that will not accept the macro conditions and only focuses upon individual "moral" deficiencies. I have seen this time and again.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I believe that when workers have increased productivity and corporations have massive profits, those workers should share in the wealth generated.

    I believe that if workers face inflation, they should see increases in the min wage to reflect those cost increases. I believe that the rising levels of inequality due to nearly non-existent wage gains damages opportunities for workers to climb and damages the economy long term, and I have shown the evidence for this throughout my postings not only in this thread but throughout the forum.

    You are simply relying on an extremist Randian libertarian viewpoint that will not accept the macro conditions and only focuses upon individual "moral" deficiencies. I have seen this time and again.
    Well, I can see we have identified the root of the problem ... you have ridiculous beliefs. The workers were paid to do a job ... they did it ... they got paid. Sounds like a completed business deal to me.

    Now, if you want to talk about raising the cost of doing the next job, we can negotiate. Of course, that would leave me free to negotiate with other labor sources, as well.
    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.
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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by GBFAN View Post
    Well, I can see we have identified the root of the problem ... you have ridiculous beliefs. The workers were paid to do a job ... they did it ... they got paid. Sounds like a completed business deal to me.

    Now, if you want to talk about raising the cost of doing the next job, we can negotiate. Of course, that would leave me free to negotiate with other labor sources, as well.
    Uh...that IS part of the problem, the negotiating powers of US workers has declined greatly since 1980 which is why wage gains have not come, which is why the top quintile has been able to capture the income gains instead.

    Duh.

    And as Piketty has pointed out, this is going to get worse, there is no incentive for those in control of capital to pay more....so the only solution is to capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Uh...that IS part of the problem, the negotiating powers of US workers has declined greatly since 1980 which is why wage gains have not come, which is why the top quintile has been able to capture the income gains instead.

    Duh.

    And as Piketty has pointed out, this is going to get worse, there is no incentive for those in control of capital to pay more....so the only solution is to capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute.
    "... capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute ..."

    Pretty sure that's what they call theft these days ...

    The truth is much simpler ... labor is less motivated to negotiate en masse because they don't want to risk the pretty good deal they've got now. Unions well recognize that forcing a confrontation will, in all likelihood, mean the end of their influence.
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    Re: Income Inequality

    Quote Originally Posted by GBFAN View Post
    "... capture some of those gains at the top and redistribute ..."

    Pretty sure that's what they call theft these days ...
    You are showing your Randian colors, "taxation is theft".



    The truth is much simpler ... labor is less motivated to negotiate en masse because they don't want to risk the pretty good deal they've got now. Unions well recognize that forcing a confrontation will, in all likelihood, mean the end of their influence.
    Yeah, we have a pretty good deal right now, wage stagnate for 90% since 1980.

    Wonderful.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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    Re: Income Inequality

    Bump..
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Sigh...lets explore some data:







    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

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