View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #71
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    It's difficult to teach someone who does not want to learn. I would start by asking if you agree that Al Queda was a threat before 9/11/01. Would you have laughed them off as well? They managed to kill over 3000 innocent people in the US in the space of just a few hours using 19 hijackers. ISIS is a much nastier off-shoot of Al Queda. Obama attempted to laugh them off and they now control more then half of Iraq. And they have already beheaded two innocent Americans.
    So again, the only answer is "ISIS is scary because 9/11 happened." So should we jump at every single group of Jihadists because we're afraid of another 9/11? Congratulations, the terrorists have succeeded in terrorizing you. You are making counterproductive choices based on your fear of them.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  2. #72
    feckless bon vivant

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post

    i also have come to understand that we are doing Saudi Arabia's job for them, and we are doing it for free. also, we can't afford it, and we are unwilling to raise taxes to pay for it. not to mention that ****head Assad is actually benefiting from our involvement. there is no good side to take here.
    This is absolutely true.
    However, when we Americans see refugees on a mountain, multiple beheadings et al, we tend to want to kill the perpetrators.
    ISIS seems to be a particularly nasty group and if we can undermine them, maybe--a big MAYBE here--the next gang will be less brutal.
    As you say, not a lot of good choices.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

  3. #73
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    The CIA was instrumental in putting the Baath party in power. Saddam clawed his way to head of the Baath power. In his day, when he was taking power, he was hailed by the US, and iconed here as a progressive, someone who would modernize Iraq. And at the time, their living standards WERE going up. Of course, no one REPORTED on his other doings...that didn't start till YEARS later, when we decided that we no longer liked him, because he outfitted his people with Russian gear. Then, in the early 90s, dessert storm erra, we gave him a scare, he got back in line, so we left him in power. The rest, as they say, is history.
    Back that up with links if you can, Kevin. And with real history....not something from democratunderground.

  4. #74
    global liberation

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    And the crap he was doing, he HAD been doing for years. We were fine with it until he reniged on the deal.
    False.

    After the invasion of Iran, costing upwards of half a million Iraqis and the chemical genocide of the Kurds to the tune of 200k, the UN and the Western world began sanctions against Saddam. After the invasion of Kuwait, will you claim the West did not respond? After the genocide of the Marsh Arabs (50k), did the West not respond? The no-fly zones were in place to prevent further genocide, Saddam fired on them. When Saddam institutionalized rape, the West responded with additional sanctions. Food-for-oil was an attempt to see revenue go to the people of Iraq, it failed; Saddam sold 400k dead children worth of food.

    17 unscr violations later, there was nothing for the West to do but nation build; unfortunately, it was so late; Saddam had annihilated Iraq's social capital.

  5. #75
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    This is absolutely true.
    However, when we Americans see refugees on a mountain, multiple beheadings et al, we tend to want to kill the perpetrators.
    ISIS seems to be a particularly nasty group and if we can undermine them, maybe--a big MAYBE here--the next gang will be less brutal.
    As you say, not a lot of good choices.
    yep, it's ****ing awful.

    i don't believe that it can be fixed via eternal military force. it has to be rejected by the region. and i see no evidence that continued involvement in the region will lead to a reduction in the militancy of new groups. history indicates the opposite.

  6. #76
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    I was more liberal back then than I am now. I supported invading Afganistan, but not Iraq. It seemed like an unnecessary war. After we invaded and found no WMD, it seemed even more unnecessary. The incompetence of the Maliki government and the Isis invasion of Iraq makes Bush's decision look even worse in retrospect. Hussein would have been a buffer against Isis in the west and Iran in the east. Now it looks like we spent blood and money just to make Iraq even worse then it already was.

  7. #77
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    yep, it's ****ing awful.

    i don't believe that it can be fixed via eternal military force. it has to be rejected by the region. and i see no evidence that continued involvement in the region will lead to a reduction in the militancy of new groups. history indicates the opposite.
    Without continuing military assistance at least with airstrikes, we would just be turning Iraq over to ISIS The fix needs to be both from within and from the outside. Either one alone will not solve the conflict. Iraqi government will have to be inclusive to all religious sects.

  8. #78
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    False.

    After the invasion of Iran, costing upwards of half a million Iraqis and the chemical genocide of the Kurds to the tune of 200k, the UN and the Western world began sanctions against Saddam. After the invasion of Kuwait, will you claim the West did not respond? After the genocide of the Marsh Arabs (50k), did the West not respond? The no-fly zones were in place to prevent further genocide, Saddam fired on them. When Saddam institutionalized rape, the West responded with additional sanctions. Food-for-oil was an attempt to see revenue go to the people of Iraq, it failed; Saddam sold 400k dead children worth of food.

    17 unscr violations later, there was nothing for the West to do but nation build; unfortunately, it was so late; Saddam had annihilated Iraq's social capital.
    Right. And what SHOULD have happened from the get go was, I believe they put it....Regime change, with the cost of one bullet being cheaper than an army, or some quote that went similarly.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  9. #79
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Back that up with links if you can, Kevin. And with real history....not something from democratunderground.
    CIA activities in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Exclusive: Saddam key in early CIA plot - UPI.com

    A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making - NYTimes.com

    https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-co...ss-regime.html


    Learn to history.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #80
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Without continuing military assistance at least with airstrikes, we would just be turning Iraq over to ISIS The fix needs to be both from within and from the outside. Either one alone will not solve the conflict. Iraqi government will have to be inclusive to all religious sects.
    The fix needs to be internal and regional.

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