View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #61
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    At the time, Clarke was attempting to hawk his book, so he sensationalized his interpretation of the facts. Condoleeza Rice quite ably corrected him and pointed out that nothing was set aside. And he was still holding a grudge against Rice.

    CNN.com - Bush administration rejects*Clarke charges - Mar 23, 2004
    I'm well aware of the Bush administration's attempts to discredit Clarke. Everyone who isn't a fanatical partisan knows that those attempts were lies. Other witnesses came forward and corroborated Clarke's claims shortly after the administration denied them. It was a very embarrassing situation for Rice and the rest of the administration. Again, everyone who knows anything about the situation and isn't a rabid partisan knows this.

    Oh my! A terrorist group that is attempting to form a state the size of California...that beheads anyone who does not convert to Islam is not threat to us? I bet you thought Al Qeuda was no threat before 9/11/01.
    A lot of people say a lot of things. Kim Jong Il threatened to nuke us. Other Jihadist groups have made similar threats against the US in the last decade. Why does this one frighten you so much more than the others?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  2. #62
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Read anything by Richard Clarke on the subject. He talks in detail about his time as the head of the country's counter terrorism activities and how his efforts to focus on Bin Laden were shoved aside by the Bush administration in favor of a focus on Iraq.

    Meanwhile, you have no reason to suspect that ISIS is some kind of threat to us. We agree that not every potential foe merits drastic action, and there seems to be no reason why this one does. I think we're done here.
    Yes I've read about all that and also read most of Clarke's book. But the thing is that nobody else in GWB's White House will concur that Clarke is telling it like it is. There is always a lot of arm chair quarterbacking after the fact in these things. I am about as non-partisan as a poltically-minded person can get and have no problem acknowledging mistakes made by the Bush White House. But I am always suspicious of those who never say a word until AFTER the fact and after it is politically or financially profitable to do so. Clarke never said a word, never uttered a peep about any of this, until he was passed over for a high level Homeland Security appointment he coveted and then quit and became a disgruntled former employee. He never uttered a peep about any of this until his own self-serving book came out.

    Things are not always as they seem, most especially when people have self-serving motives to exaggerate or distort the truth.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #63
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Yes I've read about all that and also read most of Clarke's book. But the thing is that nobody else in GWB's White House will concur that Clarke is telling it like it is. There is always a lot of arm chair quarterbacking after the fact in these things. I am about as non-partisan as a poltically-minded person can get and have no problem acknowledging mistakes made by the Bush White House. But I am always suspicious of those who never say a word until AFTER the fact and after it is politically or financially profitable to do so. Clarke never said a word, never uttered a peep about any of this, until he was passed over for a high level Homeland Security appointment he coveted and then quit and became a disgruntled former employee. He never uttered a peep about any of this until his own self-serving book came out.

    Things are not always as they seem, most especially when people have self-serving motives to exaggerate or distort the truth.
    I like how every response to my question is about trying to vindicate Bush, rather than actually address why ISIS is somehow a threat to us here in the US.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  4. #64
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I like how every response to my question is about trying to vindicate Bush, rather than actually address why ISIS is somehow a threat to us here in the US.
    I don't see anything in my post that vindicates Bush in any way. But if I'm going to verbally convict somebody, I rather insist that he or she is convicted for a crime they actually committed. You WANTING to believe Clarke over and above those who have openly said he didn't get it right is insufficient reason to convict Bush on that particular issue.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #65
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I'm well aware of the Bush administration's attempts to discredit Clarke. Everyone who isn't a fanatical partisan knows that those attempts were lies. Other witnesses came forward and corroborated Clarke's claims shortly after the administration denied them. It was a very embarrassing situation for Rice and the rest of the administration. Again, everyone who knows anything about the situation and isn't a rabid partisan knows this.
    Actually it is only rabid partisans take your point of view. You are pretty much making it up as you go along. Condoleeza Rice quite ably shot down Clarke's line of bull.

    Condoleezza Rice Answers Richard Clark | Etalkinghead

    Clarke was attempting to hawk a book and he at the time held a grudge that he did not get a promotion. And as the article points out, at that point in time, the national security team was hold overs from the Clinton administration. It is kind of small minded to blame Bush for not stopping something in eight months that Clinton could not stop in eight years.



    A lot of people say a lot of things. Kim Jong Il threatened to nuke us. Other Jihadist groups have made similar threats against the US in the last decade. Why does this one frighten you so much more than the others?
    It does not frighten me, son. I am merely making the point that ISIS is a threat that must be dealt with.

  6. #66
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I don't see anything in my post that vindicates Bush in any way. But if I'm going to verbally convict somebody, I rather insist that he or she is convicted for a crime they actually committed. You WANTING to believe Clarke over and above those who have openly said he didn't get it right is insufficient reason to convict Bush on that particular issue.
    You do know that the white house retracted its attacks on Clarke after numerous people came forth and corroborated his statements, don't you? Wanting has nothing to do with it. These are the facts.

    And I again return to my original question. The fearmongers have described ISIS as some kind of huge danger. Lindsey Graham is basically crapping his pants over them. Why should we be so afraid of them?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  7. #67
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I like how every response to my question is about trying to vindicate Bush, rather than actually address why ISIS is somehow a threat to us here in the US.
    It's difficult to teach someone who does not want to learn. I would start by asking if you agree that Al Queda was a threat before 9/11/01. Would you have laughed them off as well? They managed to kill over 3000 innocent people in the US in the space of just a few hours using 19 hijackers. ISIS is a much nastier off-shoot of Al Queda. Obama attempted to laugh them off and they now control more then half of Iraq. And they have already beheaded two innocent Americans.

  8. #68
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    You do know that the white house retracted its attacks on Clarke after numerous people came forth and corroborated his statements, don't you? Wanting has nothing to do with it. These are the facts.

    Do name those numerous people. Let me guess....they are partisan democrats, right? And the Bush White House did not attack Clarke other then to point out that he was full of bull in his accusations. It was Clarke that attacked the Bush administration. It is corny that you look at self defense as an attack.

    And I again return to my original question. The fearmongers have described ISIS as some kind of huge danger. Lindsey Graham is basically crapping his pants over them. Why should we be so afraid of them?
    I am not a big fan of RINO Lindsey Graham however I do not see the panic you describe. You are basically pulling it out of your hat.

  9. #69
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's pretty much as I expected. Afghanistan has a new power sharing agreement in their democratic government and a democratic Iraq is fighting against genocide instead of a dictator committing it.






    Yeah, he never did anything wrong.

    And the crap he was doing, he HAD been doing for years. We were fine with it until he reniged on the deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #70
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Is the left still pushing that corny fantasy that the US/CIA installed Saddam in power in Iraq?
    The CIA was instrumental in putting the Baath party in power. Saddam clawed his way to head of the Baath power. In his day, when he was taking power, he was hailed by the US, and iconed here as a progressive, someone who would modernize Iraq. And at the time, their living standards WERE going up. Of course, no one REPORTED on his other doings...that didn't start till YEARS later, when we decided that we no longer liked him, because he outfitted his people with Russian gear. Then, in the early 90s, dessert storm erra, we gave him a scare, he got back in line, so we left him in power. The rest, as they say, is history.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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