View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #311
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    Jack Hays's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Ah. Okay. If that's the case, then I would have to defer in most cases to those with actual combat experience. But please bear in mind the word 'most', because not so long ago we were led into an illegal and unprovoked war by a president who was kept protected by being part of a 'boutique' sqadron, and cheered on by a passel of conservative pundits, most of whose military experience seems to have been comprised of watching the movie "Patton".
    Yes, and Abraham Lincoln's son was restricted to duty on US Grant's staff. Review the exchange and you'll see why I responded.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #312
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Yes, and Abraham Lincoln's son was restricted to duty on US Grant's staff. Review the exchange and you'll see why I responded.
    Jack, I agree with you for the most part - and that "most part" is there because of how and by whom we got led into the Iraq War. I've got zero problem with a president's son - or a CIA director's son, or the son of any VIP whose position is as high and as influential - being kept out of harm's way, because having if such a leader has a child in theatre, such might adversely affect his or her decisions that affect operations in that theatre.

    That said, when it comes to such discussions, the opinions of combat vets (and I am not a combat vet) would and should be given greater weight...but not absolutely so. Iraq should have taught us that. Sometimes they're wrong - see all the combat vets who were eager for us to invade Iraq, and who were angry with Obama getting us out of Iraq. But more often they're right. There was a famous combat vet who had been against taking down Saddam Hussein even when he - that vet - had the means at hand to do so. Of course you know I'm referring to the dad of the guy who did convince us all that we needed to invade Iraq. The longer I live, the higher regard in which I hold George H.W. Bush...even if he was hip-deep in Iran-Contra.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #313
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    Ahlevah's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    That's a very partisan speech. Do try to make the next one something closer to objective. Have a nice weekend.
    You don't think calling POTUS an idiot is partisan? For the record, I'm a Republican who voted for Reagan (twice), Big Bush (twice), Bob Dole, Little Bush (twice), McCain, and Romney. I watch a lot of Fox News. I like Glenn Beck. BUT a little less hubris and more honesty on the part of the people who walked away from Afghanistan while using a false pretense to enmesh us in a cluster**** in Iraq would be refreshing. I mean, they blame BOb for everything, up to and including genital warts. I'm all in favor of his drone campaign and his use of night raids to take out al-Qaeda and Taliban leadership, up to an including OBL. And I stopped counting when we got to al-Qaeda Operational Head #13. So his response in Afghanistan was certainly more forceful than Bush's, which was to essentially throw all of our muscle into Iraq and leave Afghanistan twisting in the wind. Regarding Syria, I think he did the right thing by not immediately sending arms to the so-called moderate Syrian rebels because of all of the confusion, lack of organization, and bickering among the various groups vying for political advantage. Initially, I opposed direct military aid on these grounds, but the watershed moment for me came with the beheadings of the two American free-lance journalists. It outlined for me in stark terms the evil we face. (And "evil" is the only appropriate word to use here.) Now I've come to the conclusion that Obama in on the right course in developing a multi-national coalition while training and arming Syrians, Kurds, and Iraqis to fight ISIS while hitting them from the air. I'd also support the use of special forces night raids similar to the ones we carried out in Afghanistan to take out the leadership of ISIS.
    Last edited by Ahlevah; 09-27-14 at 11:39 PM.
    Нава́льный 2018

  4. #314
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    Montecresto's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    In Afghanistan we fought mostly Taliban after 2002, AQ being mostly dead or hiding in Pakistan. Are you claiming we were fighting AQ in Iraq from 2003 onward? Having been to both countries, I have you at a disadvantage. Your figure of 4,000 KIA inflicted by AQ remains nonsense.
    I didn't speak to Afghanistan. Perhaps you should learn about Al Qaeda in Iraq.

    Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #315
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    George Bush did nothing of the sort, but there is no lack of dishonesty in the spin of those who refuse to report honestly but would rather spread flat out lies to the willing and gullible who continue to spread them.

    Maureen Dowd in her syndicated May 14, 2003 column, was the one to spin that so dishonestly, and despite the fact that Andrew Sullivan and others thoroughly discredited the lie, the blindly partisan will just keep repeating it anyway.

    What Dowd said was this:

    Busy chasing off Saddam, the president and vice president had told us that Al Qaeda was spent. "Al Qaeda is on the run," President Bush said last week. "That group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly but surely being decimated... They're not a problem anymore."


    What Bush [B]actually said that you quoted accurately but interpreted as Dowd did was this:

    Al Qaeda is on the run. That group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly but surely being decimated. Right now, about half of all the top Al Qaeda operatives are either jailed or dead. In either case, they're not a problem anymore.

    Obviously Bush was saying that those who had been jailed or killed were not a problem any more. He never, at any time, ever said that al Qaida is not a problem any more.

    One wonders how we will ever achieve the common goal and purpose as a people to fight terrorism or for any other purpose when the politics of personal destruction are constantly placed ahead of everything else?
    The point being that just two months into what would be nearly a decade long conflict with Al Qaeda in Iraq, Bush was claiming that Al Qaeda was ON THE RUN, that group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly but SURELY being decimated. Two months, TWO MONTHS, nevertheless we went on to fight and loose in the end 4,500 soldiers in Iraq and 30,000 wounded, and guess what, to this day, they (al qaeda) lives!!! They were used by the US in Libya to help topple Gaddafi and they are no problem to us in Syria because they are working to topple president Assad. Bush was wrong, and every diminishing comment Obama has made about Al Qaeda has been wrong as well.

    al-Qaeda has the following direct affiliates:

    AbdullahAzzam Briagdes
    Ansar al-Islam
    al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb
    Al-Qaeda in Somalia
    Egyptian Islamic Jihad
    al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
    al-Nusra Front in Syria and Lebanon
    al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent
    al-Qaeda has the following indirect affiliates:

    East Turkestan Islamic Movement
    Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
    Taliban
    Caucasus Emirate
    Fatah al-Islam
    Lashkar-e-Taiba
    Jaish-e-Mohammed
    Jemaah Islamiyah
    Abu Sayyaf
    Rajah Sulaiman movement
    Islamic Jihad Union
    Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa
    Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group
    al-Qaeda Kurdish Battalions
    Last edited by Montecresto; 09-28-14 at 12:32 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #316
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    ObamacareFail's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Ah. Okay. If that's the case, then I would have to defer in most cases to those with actual combat experience. But please bear in mind the word 'most', because not so long ago we were led into an illegal and unprovoked war by a president who was kept protected by being part of a 'boutique' sqadron, and cheered on by a passel of conservative pundits, most of whose military experience seems to have been comprised of watching the movie "Patton".
    Your partisanship clouds any sense of objectivity. What exactly was illegal about the 2003 war? And Bush attempted to volunteer for Vietnam duty. Nobody was protecting him. If he wanted to avoid Vietnam altogether, he could have by simply not enlisting. Joining the Air National Guard is not exactly dodging combat duty. During Vietnam.....guard pilots were at great risk of being rotated to Vietnam.

  7. #317
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    You don't think calling POTUS an idiot is partisan?
    No...I do not.

  8. #318
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    AlbqOwl's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The point being that just two months into what would be nearly a decade long conflict with Al Qaeda in Iraq, Bush was claiming that Al Qaeda was ON THE RUN, that group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly but SURELY being decimated. Two months, TWO MONTHS, nevertheless we went on to fight and loose in the end 4,500 soldiers in Iraq and 30,000 wounded, and guess what, to this day, they (al qaeda) lives!!! They were used by the US in Libya to help topple Gaddafi and they are no problem to us in Syria because they are working to topple president Assad. Bush was wrong, and every diminishing comment Obama has made about Al Qaeda has been wrong as well.

    al-Qaeda has the following direct affiliates:

    AbdullahAzzam Briagdes
    Ansar al-Islam
    al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb
    Al-Qaeda in Somalia
    Egyptian Islamic Jihad
    al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
    al-Nusra Front in Syria and Lebanon
    al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent
    al-Qaeda has the following indirect affiliates:

    East Turkestan Islamic Movement
    Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
    Taliban
    Caucasus Emirate
    Fatah al-Islam
    Lashkar-e-Taiba
    Jaish-e-Mohammed
    Jemaah Islamiyah
    Abu Sayyaf
    Rajah Sulaiman movement
    Islamic Jihad Union
    Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa
    Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group
    al-Qaeda Kurdish Battalions
    Bush's account of al Qaida in that particular speech at that particular time was absolutely 100% correct and is verifiably so. He did not at any time say that al Qaida was no longer dangerous or that we should let up the pressure. But the damage done to al Qaida at that time was real, all the leaders were scrambling for cover and trying to be invisible or unfindable, and the organization was weakened and unable to operate in the open or to initiate anything approaching their success obtained on 9/11. He made no claims that were not supported with the evidence available at that time. What he did claim has been oft misquoted or misrepresented by Bush-haters on the left.

    I hope to live long enough to see a society return to a culture that doesn't focus on the politics of personal destruction and demonizing somebody instead of looking honestly at successes, mistakes, and how we might do it better.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #319
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Your partisanship clouds any sense of objectivity. What exactly was illegal about the 2003 war? And Bush attempted to volunteer for Vietnam duty. Nobody was protecting him. If he wanted to avoid Vietnam altogether, he could have by simply not enlisting. Joining the Air National Guard is not exactly dodging combat duty. During Vietnam.....guard pilots were at great risk of being rotated to Vietnam.
    What was illegal about the 2003 invasion of Iraq? The fact that Iraq did not present a clear and present danger to America. Not only that, but what happened to those who pointed out the faults and fallacies in the Bush administration's claims about WMD's? The Downing Street Memo proves that the Bush administration had been informed that its intel was flawed, but that they were determined to go to war anyway.

    And if you read my other comments with Jack, you'll see that I do not begrudge Bush remaining in that 'boutique squadron', nor do I begrudge his dad making sure he stayed there. But that doesn't mean that Bush the Younger was any more qualified to lead the nation.

    You really should learn to be as cynical of your own people as you are of Dems...and to be as understanding of Dems as you are of your own people.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #320
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    MadLib's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    everyone should pay extra taxes when the country is at war.
    I agree that we should be more frugal about defense money, but I disagree with raising taxes for everyone. I think our military can see drastic spending cuts once we leave Afghanistan and still be able to accomplish our goals overseas - well-trained Special Forces and a powerful Navy and Air Force will be much more useful in the 21st century than a large standing army. Further, we should tax excess profits for defense contractors. It would also be a good idea to end the War on Drugs, slash funding for the prison system, and free those convicted of drug offenses, so that we have more money to work with.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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