View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    The truth is that going into Afghananistan and Iraq was the right thing to do. I believe that history will eventually show justification. However we need to stop fighting wars in a half assed way. We need to go back to declaring wars rather then just giving presidents permission. And we need to give the military clear objectives and avoid hamstringing them with limited rules of engagement. The objective should be victory and a contingent of troops should remain behind long enough to guarantee the peace. We still have troops in both Germany and Japan. And Japanese fighters were every bit as fanatical as Islamic extremists. Google Japanese kamikazis. Japan is now settled and peaceful. Suggesting that we should not fight Islamic extremism because we are afraid they will use the fight to recruit more extremists is the same thing as burying our heads in the sand. ISIS could have been destroyed in Syria a year ago, and leaving a contingent of troops behind in Iraq would have prevented any such group from coming back and taking over half of Iraq before Obama admitted there is a problem. And the best recruiting goal he gave the extremists was when he telegraphed his punches by telling the Taliban exactly when we would be leaving Afghanistan.
    Afghanistan seemed more justifiable at the time unless you had studied history. staying there for thirteen years is just ridiculous, though. get them out of there now.

    i don't support leaving even one soldier in Iraq, nor should we have an embassy there, as we can't secure it. we should not be participating in a holy war between two sects of Islam. not to mention that most of the idiot hijackers on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, and the US responded by letting Saudi Arabia abdicate its responsibilities as regional hegemon. meanwhile, they don't lift a finger to help us with Mexican drug gangs, nor do they offer their aid in dealing with narco states in Central America. nope. their region, their responsibility.

    politicians feel pressure to look like they're doing something, though, and that's what's happening here. the public is going to have to make it crystal clear that we do not support an endless state of war.

  2. #22
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Most of our warmongering in the middle east has made the situation worse. This goes as far back to the 1970s, when we started this whole "arm various groups to fight the other groups we don't like" stuff started. And since then, nearly every time, the new powerful group starts with the violence and attacking US interests. The middle east will never be peaceful until it build peace itself.

    That said, ISIS is killing a lot of innocent people like the Yazidi and protecting people from violence is one of the few reasons that I would support our military intervention. But we must have a realistic understanding that groups like ISIS are not a threat to us here at home, and no matter who we kill in the middle east, it won't bring about peace.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Most of our warmongering in the middle east has made the situation worse. This goes as far back to the 1970s, when we started this whole "arm various groups to fight the other groups we don't like" stuff started. And since then, nearly every time, the new powerful group starts with the violence and attacking US interests. The middle east will never be peaceful until it build peace itself.

    That said, ISIS is killing a lot of innocent people like the Yazidi and protecting people from violence is one of the few reasons that I would support our military intervention. But we must have a realistic understanding that groups like ISIS are not a threat to us here at home, and no matter who we kill in the middle east, it won't bring about peace.
    I imagine some prior to 9/11 said groups like al Qaida are not a threat to us here at home.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I had to answer it's complicated. As far as Afghanistan, I supported in that it was what had to be done. Honestly, the idea of just getting out wasn't, IMO a good idea. I don't like nation building necessarily, but we did what had to be done. I think in many respects we've done everything that we could do for them. In the end, democracy isn't going to last if they don't want it there. I'm not sure that they want it enough, but it's not our country.

    Iraq I wasn't thrilled about, mostly because of Afghanistan. Going on two nation building exercises at the same time seemed to me at the time to be just a bad idea. Still does. Saddam was a bad guy, and eventually needed to go. Unfortunately, it really doesn't seem like that one was thought through - we created a power vacuum, and then let it degenerate into a ****storm. I don't know if the thinking was that they were ready with a democracy just in case, but it really seems like it was.

    My criticism of both of these wars, not to mention the situation in Ukraine is that we didn't really teach anyone how a democratically elected government works. Afghanistan had two men claiming to be the "rightful" winner of the election, and neither was willing to accept that they lost. In Iraq, we didn't really teach them that you have to treat minorities with a little respect and share power. In Ukraine, we're backing the people who "want" democracy as long as the other guy doesn't win.

    If we want democratic experiments to work, we have to teach them somehow that it doesn't mean always getting your way. But it's even emblematic in how our government is run now - nobody here seems to want to share power without having a temper tantrum (left or right).
    In fairness, in regards to Afghanistan.......our biggest mistake was blowing off the country after the Soviets were kicked out. We did not give it another thought until 2001. In my opinion, Reagan was the greatest president in my lifetime..however, he should have made sure we stayed involved in Afghanistan and helped them in the rebuilding process. It may have prevented it would becoming a safe haven for terrorists. And his predecessor Jimmy Carter's weak will led the image that America was a paper tiger. If he had handled the embassy hostage situation swiftly forcefully, Iran might not have become the terrorist state they are today.

  5. #25
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Iraq: I'm always against forced regime change which was the case with Iraq. Regardless of what you believe was the reason why we went over there - oil, revenge (threat on Bush I's life), WMD, terrorism - removing Iraq's leader no matter how we felt about it and disbanding him military are two decisions I think many people will look back on and regret. A Saddam-less Iraq left a power vacuum. The only stabilizer was the U.S. military...stabilizer, not neutralizer. Our military presence did nothing to stop the violence. Why? Because our presence was part of the problem. Damned if you stay, damned if you go. We couldn't win in Iraq. It's like Coleen Powell said, "You break it, you own it!"

    Bottom Line: I didn't support going into Iraq then and I'm not in full support of going back over there now. It's a three-pronged civil war with widespread insurgency run amok! Unless the more moderate Muslim countries get involved with the recognition that their nationAL sovereignty is threatened by this ISIS/ISIL Caliphate-wanna-be Islamist group that's running wild over there, I fear America will get drawn into a fight it really does not want. The threat is real; I'm just not sure if our military needs to get any more involved in this fight than it already is considering we have enemies AND potential back-stabbers all around us. If this thing goes sideways, I can see WW3 ringing out w/the ME as the prize and the U.S.A. caught in the cross-hairs.

    Afghanistan: The longer we stay, the harder it gets. We should've killed OBL in the hills of Tora Bora when we had him trapped, packed our tents and left soon after. Instead, we let him slip into Pakistan and that made the warring situation in Afghanistan worse.

    Bottom Line: Bring our boys home and let the newly elected Afghan government take control of their own country.

    Has my mind changed about either the War in Iraq or the War on Terror in Afghanistan?

    We needed to go after AQ and OBL after 9/11, but once we cut off the head of the snake, we should have left.

    Iraq...we should have left well enough alone.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 09-23-14 at 07:40 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Most of our warmongering in the middle east has made the situation worse. This goes as far back to the 1970s, when we started this whole "arm various groups to fight the other groups we don't like" stuff started. And since then, nearly every time, the new powerful group starts with the violence and attacking US interests. The middle east will never be peaceful until it build peace itself.
    Try the 1950s: we were arming various groups to fight various others who did nothing more than ally with communists.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I imagine some prior to 9/11 said groups like al Qaida are not a threat to us here at home.
    And that means we need to jump at every boogeyman in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Try the 1950s: we were arming various groups to fight various others who did nothing more than ally with communists.
    I stand corrected. I thought it really started in earnest later. But yeah, we screwed things up in the middle east for decades in order to have our dick measuring contest with the USSR, and a whole lot of people have suffered for it, including us.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement, given the recent events with ISIS and current status of Afghanistan, that you did before?

    Think back to your opinion when Bush II first invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Think back to when Obama withdrew from Iraq. Think about the current alleged wind down in Afghanistan. Doesn't really matter what your opinion was, just ask yourself if you feel the same now as you did then. And why do you feel the same or differently.

    Please elaborate.
    I feel mostly the same.

    We need to bring Iraq back under the rule of an iron fist, only then is there order in that uncivilized region.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    I feel mostly the same.

    We need to bring Iraq back under the rule of an iron fist, only then is there order in that uncivilized region.
    That's why we put Saddam in charge in the first place. But then he renigged on the deal...he was only supposed to sell oil to others for USD. Tensions between us made him decide to push the envelope, and we killed him for it.

    We'll find a new Saddam soon, IMO. And he'll be just as bad as the old...with one difference. He'll follow his marching orders from us.
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    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

  10. #30
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And that means we need to jump at every boogeyman in the future?
    I didn't say that. But if you think 9/11 was a boogeyman with 3,000 dead and millions who had their lives changed forever, I suggest we not put you in charge of national security. We didn't take Osama bin Laden seriously enough. And if we fail to know who our enemy is and fail to understand his intent and resolve to carry it out, we give him a huge advantage. Some might say we give him license to wreck whatever havoc he chooses.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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