View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #231
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    There is a difference between a country and a terrorist group. You cannot declare war on an ideology.

    To your last point. we can still monitor and intel share. We can improve our defense here at home without killing innocent civilians and creating new enemies.
    That I disagree with, technically speaking we can declare war on just about anything. Even most recent versions of War Powers Act state use of US Armed Forces in actions abroad, but does not stipulate the action has to be against a "recognized nation" specifically. I do not see much in the Act(s) or the Constitution that suggests war cannot be declared on an ideology, or even a group within a nation.

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Entirely an apples and oranges comparison. The Iraq War and WWII were not started for the same reasons, were not fought the same way, did not end the same way, nor was the concept of occupation and control of defeated nation's resources the same.
    War is war. If we spill blood in a nation to liberate it from a tyrannical dictatorship....we have a right to stick around long enough to guarantee the peace.

    My point is we were not in a political position at the time under Bush 43 or Obama to completely dictate terms of our occupation of Iraq, that is another sounds nice but absent of reality comment you have made.
    Then we need to get in a political position to treat war as war rather then a police action.

    Typical handling of nations where a government is removed then and now is not the same, in some ways that is a problem but is reality.
    The reality is that the biggest problem besides politicizing wars as we do today is the United Nations. The left thinks we need a permission slip from the UN for anything war related. The UN is almost completely useless. It is a failed version of the previously failed League of Nations. The world had a chance to get it right but simply repeated the same mistakes.

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    But then nobody is asking for "foreverwar".
    our nation has been at war for thirteen years, sometimes on multiple fronts. now we've just signed up for another one. this is what perpetual war looks like.

    it's way past time for that region to handle its own problems. the way we make that happen is to force them to by getting out of the region.

  4. #234
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    our nation has been at war for thirteen years, sometimes on multiple fronts. now we've just signed up for another one. this is what perpetual war looks like.

    it's way past time for that region to handle its own problems. the way we make that happen is to force them to by getting out of the region.
    Already in 2002 smart officers had coined the term The Long War.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  5. #235
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    our nation has been at war for thirteen years, sometimes on multiple fronts. now we've just signed up for another one. this is what perpetual war looks like.

    it's way past time for that region to handle its own problems. the way we make that happen is to force them to by getting out of the region.
    I am not for perpetual war either. I am not asking for that. However to suggest that Americans can avoid getting into wars altogether is unrealistic. There are some wars worth fighting.
    My point is that if we go to war, it should be treated as a war and not a police action. If we go to war, we need to go all in and get the job done...like we did with Germany and Japan. We fought a world war on two fronts and were in and mostly out in roughly four years. Afghanistan is still going on because we limited the rules of engagement. Same thing happened in Vietnam and Korea. Iraq would have ended much sooner if we had taken the insurgency seriously to begin with and started the surge strategy much sooner. Americans generally support wars we get involved in....however when war drags on, we get war weary. We need to stop politicizing wars to the point where one side of congress wants to win and the other side wants to lose. And we need to be willing to play "whack a mole" against terrorists. That might actually prevent all out war. If we had done so in late 2012 in Syria, ISIS would not be in Iraq now.

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    I am not for perpetual war either. I am not asking for that. However to suggest that Americans can avoid getting into wars altogether is unrealistic. There are some wars worth fighting.
    as much of a peacenik as i am, i don't disagree with this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    My point is that if we go to war, it should be treated as a war and not a police action. If we go to war, we need to go all in and get the job done...like we did with Germany and Japan. We fought a world war on two fronts and were in and mostly out in roughly four years. Afghanistan is still going on because we limited the rules of engagement. Same thing happened in Vietnam and Korea. Iraq would have ended much sooner if we had taken the insurgency seriously to begin with and started the surge strategy much sooner. Americans generally support wars we get involved in....however when war drags on, we get war weary. We need to stop politicizing wars to the point where one side of congress wants to win and the other side wants to lose. And we need to be willing to play "whack a mole" against terrorists. That might actually prevent all out war. If we had done so in late 2012 in Syria, ISIS would not be in Iraq now.
    that area has been the graveyard of empires for eons now. the best we can really hope for is that Saudi Arabia and a couple other nations will step up and say "cut it out, ****ers. this is bad for business." the current strategy will not work, and it has potential to further destabilize the region.

    plus, we're helping out that ****head Assad. now there's a ****er who needs to be droned. **** that asshole.

    this war is a mistake. we need to get all of our people out of that region and let it stabilize. do you really think that even if we killed every member of Islamic State (which we won't) that something worse wouldn't rise from its ashes? because that's what we're looking at here.

    get them out now. Saudi Arabia and Iran, this one's your ****ty situation to fix.

  7. #237
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    as much of a peacenik as i am, i don't disagree with this statement.


    that area has been the graveyard of empires for eons now.
    So has Europe...however it has been relatively peaceful since WW2. Can't always judge strictly based on the past.

    the best we can really hope for is that Saudi Arabia and a couple other nations will step up and say "cut it out, ****ers. this is bad for business."
    Considering the brutality of ISIS, I think that is beginning to happen.

    the current strategy will not work, and it has potential to further destabilize the region.
    That's because we have a commander in chief who has a nasty habit of telegraphing his punches or lack of them. When he outright and publicly takes US ground troops off the table....ISIS gets the impression that all they will have to do is survive some air strikes and wait us out. I don't think we need to mobilize a hundred thousand ground troops, however there may come a point where ISIS may not be defeated without at least some ground troops. Hopefully not ours, but we should not take that off the table.

    plus, we're helping out that ****head Assad. now there's a ****er who needs to be droned. **** that asshole.
    Assad is an asshole...however ISIS at this point is a much more dangerous gaggle of bloody murderous assholes.

    this war is a mistake. we need to get all of our people out of that region and let it stabilize. do you really think that even if we killed every member of Islamic State (which we won't) that something worse wouldn't rise from its ashes? because that's what we're looking at here.
    That is the attitude that many European nations and for a while the USA had when Hitler and the Third Reich started their conquest of Europe. Everyone figured it would stop somewhere and if they remained neutral the Nazis would bypass them. The fanatics in the middle east do not have a stopping point in mind.

    get them out now. Saudi Arabia and Iran, this one's your ****ty situation to fix.
    And then what happens if ISIS wins?

  8. #238
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    So has Europe...however it has been relatively peaceful since WW2. Can't always judge strictly based on the past.
    Europe is not analogous to the Middle East. the analogy may work in eight hundred years or so, but the Middle East is a completely different situation right now. it cannot be stabilized externally, and especially through external military force.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Considering the brutality of ISIS, I think that is beginning to happen.
    then perhaps the region should do more about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    That's because we have a commander in chief who has a nasty habit of telegraphing his punches or lack of them. When he outright and publicly takes US ground troops off the table....ISIS gets the impression that all they will have to do is survive some air strikes and wait us out. I don't think we need to mobilize a hundred thousand ground troops, however there may come a point where ISIS may not be defeated without at least some ground troops. Hopefully not ours, but we should not take that off the table.
    i don't support sending ground troops or even manned airplanes. we need to exit the conflict and let the region take care of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    Assad is an asshole...however ISIS at this point is a much more dangerous gaggle of bloody murderous assholes.
    i don't support helping Assad in any way. when i think about my taxes going to fund that, it makes me want to vomit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    That is the attitude that many European nations and for a while the USA had when Hitler and the Third Reich started their conquest of Europe. Everyone figured it would stop somewhere and if they remained neutral the Nazis would bypass them. The fanatics in the middle east do not have a stopping point in mind.
    then i suppose that the more rational countries there should do something about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    And then what happens if ISIS wins?
    we'll probably find that out regardless of what we do. this strategy will not work, and will likely make the problem worse.

    but let's say theoretically that it does work, and we kill most of Islamic State. another will pop up, just like with Al Qaeda. then we'll be expected to do it again. and again. and again.

    no thanks.

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    George Bush claimed that they were on the run and not a problem anymore in May of 2003 already, long before most people even knew who Barack Obama was. But, Al Qaeda went on to kill another 4,000 US soldiers. In fact, George Bush never did destroy Al Qaeda, they are still alive and well. What a partisan empty shirt.

    Bush, May 5, 2003: Al Qaeda is on the run. That group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly, but surely being decimated. Right now, about half of all the top al Qaeda operatives are either jailed or dead. In either case, they’re not a problem anymore.
    Coo. Bush was wrong. And the Islamofascist supporter on the golf course? Was he right to give back the Bush victory in Iraq to appease his supporters?

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    Europe is not analogous to the Middle East. the analogy may work in eight hundred years or so, but the Middle East is a completely different situation right now. it cannot be stabilized externally, and especially through external military force.

    then perhaps the region should do more about it.

    i don't support sending ground troops or even manned airplanes. we need to exit the conflict and let the region take care of it.

    i don't support helping Assad in any way. when i think about my taxes going to fund that, it makes me want to vomit.

    then i suppose that the more rational countries there should do something about it.

    we'll probably find that out regardless of what we do. this strategy will not work, and will likely make the problem worse.

    but let's say theoretically that it does work, and we kill most of Islamic State. another will pop up, just like with Al Qaeda. then we'll be expected to do it again. and again. and again.

    no thanks.
    I love appeasement as much as the next guy. Are you related to Neville Chamberlain?

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