View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #201
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    We have been borrowing money to pay for everything for a long time. It is not wars that are breaking the bank. It is a runaway entitlement system. That's what we need to get control of.
    if we can afford foreverwar, then we can afford social safety nets. i would put social safety nets well above perpetual war on the priority list.

  2. #202
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That is absolutely wrong.

    Russian support of al-Assad has always been of importance and I would argue is a key reason to the US calling al-Assad a problem, there was little in it for us where as other dictators we do work with and overlook their method of rule. Similar story with Iran, who we have been calling a problem for a very long time.

    The truth is the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (and eventually ISIS) used to have a different name in the region, which included fighters operating in Syria and Iraq and many other places; that would be al-Qaeda. US Troops and allied Sunni had al-Qaeda fairly well under control around the 2006 surge, but they were never destroyed and that includes taking out Bin Laden. Those still there in 2010 were fundamentally the same looking for opportunity. It was handed to them in the civil war in Syria and the weakness of Iraq's government (the former not our issue, the latter our direct caused issue.) As early as 2011 who became ISIS in Iraq was successful in getting freed prisoners held by the Iraqi government, successful in recruitment and dealing with older experienced soldiers who at one time were under Saddam. In short they rebuilt their strength just in time to take advantage of these conditions already mentioned. As such were in Syria as well operating not in conjunction with the Free Syrian Army but rather in competition, allowing the civil war to alter into a multiple way civil war. Enough so that these so called "moderates" already agreed to not engage ISIS even with our repeated calls to arm these so called "moderates."

    But even before Iraq, by principle ISIS is the product of genocide happening in Syria. There was not enough momentum for the Free Syrian Army in 2012 to topple al-Assad and some of the attacks on these people predate that time frame. Facing al-Assad's intelligence services, military, and violent attacks those in opposition became divided and disenfranchised only to soon thereafter become radicalized and militant. Carrying out operations before 2012. At one time these people turned to the world, were ignored, and embraced the idea of Islamic State independence. That could not by design include "moderates" fighting under the Free Syrian Army banner. Just across the border there were other groups disenfranchised in Iraq, by another problem that from their point of view the US created.

    Syria is the real reason for this and it predates 2012. The break point, between the now established ISIS and al-Qaeda, occurred because of what is happening in Syria. And why? ISIS wants something they have always wanted, independence from other factions in the same religion. And there is zero evidence that arming the Free Syrian Army would have prevented ISIS operations in Iraq or Syria. al-Assad already made the bed we are living in, which is why Obama got punked so badly by Putin on Syria. It is so bad now that in some ways you could look at al-Qaeda and ISIS in competition with one another when you would think the synergy between the two would produce world wide attacks. But what we really see are the fruits of two terrible trees. Iraq's government weakness and how well al-Assad has handled dealing with the US. The "moderates" there will drag this multiple way civil war in Syria for years. There is no evidence our arming them alone would speed things up... or undo what al-Assad already did to those that became ISIS.
    Iranian support ramped up significantly in late 2012. Forces that became ISIS were negligible in early 2012.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  3. #203
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    according to Bloomberg, we generally raised rates or added a surtax until recently.

    Bush Breaks 150-Year History of Higher U.S. Taxes in Wartime - Bloomberg

    if you want a constant state of war, you should have to pay more to fund it. shared sacrifice.
    Oh I don't disagree at all about raising taxes in time of war. I think failure to do so was GWB's greatest mistake. Nonetheless, every war in US history has required deficit financing.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #204
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Iranian support ramped up significantly in late 2012. Forces that became ISIS were negligible in early 2012.
    First is was non-existent, now it is negligible... which is it?

  5. #205
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Oh I don't disagree at all about raising taxes in time of war. I think failure to do so was GWB's greatest mistake. Nonetheless, every war in US history has required deficit financing.
    Only made worse by Bush 43 being asinine enough to go to two wars on the back of tax breaks. Does not help the required deficit financing when you intentionally make poor fiscal decisions based on votes.

  6. #206
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    First is was non-existent, now it is negligible... which is it?
    Either. Point is they were too weak to matter.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #207
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Either. Point is they were too weak to matter.
    A point history does not agree with, but it sounds good politically.

  8. #208
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    A point history does not agree with, but it sounds good politically.
    On the contrary, it's nothing more or less than historical fact.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  9. #209
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Had we acted in Syria in 2012 the civil war would have ended that year. There would never have been an ISIS. Had BHO not talked so openly of leaving Iraq completely, and had he not reduced planned US force levels below a worthwhile figure, Maliki would have been easier to deal with.
    Now you are going off the deep end. After what happened in Libya you are now insisting that if the U.S overthrew Assad in 2012 everything would be peachy? You have a neocon-like knack for oversimplifying things and then getting in over your head. Next you will be wanting Obama to chant "Bring it on". You also have no respect for our military. Asking them to remain where they are not wanted and be subjected to endless attacks and IED's just so we can keep an eye on Maliki is a disgusting waste of American lives. They did their job many times over already and too many have been killed or maimed for life...and for what?
    Last edited by iguanaman; 09-25-14 at 07:19 PM.

  10. #210
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Now you are going off the deep end. After what happened in Libya you are now insisting that if the U.S overthrew Assad in 2012 everything would be peachy? You have a neocon-like knack for oversimplifying things and then getting in over your head. Next you will be wanting Obama to chant "Bring it on". You also have no respect for our military. Asking them to remain where they are not wanted and be subjected to endless attacks and IED's just so we can keep an eye on Maliki is a disgusting waste of American lives.
    The problem in Libya was not too much US involvement but too little. Had we not withdrawn from Iraq there would have been minimal attacks or IED's. You apparently know few Iraq veterans.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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