View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #191
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    ISIS is a tiny minority that would never have mobilized were it not for the vacuum in Syria.
    Again, all rhetoric with little offered as to why.

  2. #192
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    All rhetoric but with little offered as to why. Sounds too much like a partisan effort to go after Obama, and less like reasoned debate as to why the Middle East is such a mess.
    It's all just straightforward history.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  3. #193
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Again, all rhetoric with little offered as to why.
    Not rhetoric, history.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #194
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It's all just straightforward history.
    Not really, the alternative did not happen nor is there evidence that it would have as you suggest. Thus, anti-Obama rhetoric devoid of the history of the region.

  5. #195
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Not really, the alternative did not happen nor is there evidence that it would have as you suggest. Thus, anti-Obama rhetoric devoid of the history of the region.

    It's why Clinton, Panetta and Petraeus all pushed for action in Syria in early 2012. They saw both the opportunity and the risk.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  6. #196
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It's why Clinton, Panetta and Petraeus all pushed for action in Syria in early 2012. They saw both the opportunity and the risk.
    Their eyes were on al-Assad, not who became ISIS. And there *still* is no evidence arms support for "moderates" in early 2012 would have toppled al-Assad's regime or prevented ISIS from forming. Would things be different, of course... but there is no certainty that ISIS would have not existed with such action.

  7. #197
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Their eyes were on al-Assad, not who became ISIS. And there *still* is no evidence arms support for "moderates" in early 2012 would have toppled al-Assad's regime or prevented ISIS from forming. Would things be different, of course... but there is no certainty that ISIS would have not existed with such action.
    The forces that have become the Free Syrian Army were the only opposition forces in the field in early 2012 and they had momentum on their side. Russian and Iranian support to Asad had not yet become important. The window of opportunity closed by early 2013.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  8. #198
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Iraq: I'm always against forced regime change which was the case with Iraq. Regardless of what you believe was the reason why we went over there - oil, revenge (threat on Bush I's life), WMD, terrorism - removing Iraq's leader no matter how we felt about it and disbanding him military are two decisions I think many people will look back on and regret. A Saddam-less Iraq left a power vacuum. The only stabilizer was the U.S. military...stabilizer, not neutralizer. Our military presence did nothing to stop the violence. Why? Because our presence was part of the problem. Damned if you stay, damned if you go. We couldn't win in Iraq. It's like Coleen Powell said, "You break it, you own it!"

    Bottom Line: I didn't support going into Iraq then and I'm not in full support of going back over there now. It's a three-pronged civil war with widespread insurgency run amok! Unless the more moderate Muslim countries get involved with the recognition that their nationAL sovereignty is threatened by this ISIS/ISIL Caliphate-wanna-be Islamist group that's running wild over there, I fear America will get drawn into a fight it really does not want. The threat is real; I'm just not sure if our military needs to get any more involved in this fight than it already is considering we have enemies AND potential back-stabbers all around us. If this thing goes sideways, I can see WW3 ringing out w/the ME as the prize and the U.S.A. caught in the cross-hairs.

    Afghanistan: The longer we stay, the harder it gets. We should've killed OBL in the hills of Tora Bora when we had him trapped, packed our tents and left soon after. Instead, we let him slip into Pakistan and that made the warring situation in Afghanistan worse.

    Bottom Line: Bring our boys home and let the newly elected Afghan government take control of their own country.

    Has my mind changed about either the War in Iraq or the War on Terror in Afghanistan?

    We needed to go after AQ and OBL after 9/11, but once we cut off the head of the snake, we should have left.

    Iraq...we should have left well enough alone.
    Afghanistan was also forced regime change.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  9. #199
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The forces that have become the Free Syrian Army were the only opposition forces in the field in early 2012 and they had momentum on their side. Russian and Iranian support to Asad had not yet become important. The window of opportunity closed by early 2013.
    That is absolutely wrong.

    Russian support of al-Assad has always been of importance and I would argue is a key reason to the US calling al-Assad a problem, there was little in it for us where as other dictators we do work with and overlook their method of rule. Similar story with Iran, who we have been calling a problem for a very long time.

    The truth is the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (and eventually ISIS) used to have a different name in the region, which included fighters operating in Syria and Iraq and many other places; that would be al-Qaeda. US Troops and allied Sunni had al-Qaeda fairly well under control around the 2006 surge, but they were never destroyed and that includes taking out Bin Laden. Those still there in 2010 were fundamentally the same looking for opportunity. It was handed to them in the civil war in Syria and the weakness of Iraq's government (the former not our issue, the latter our direct caused issue.) As early as 2011 who became ISIS in Iraq was successful in getting freed prisoners held by the Iraqi government, successful in recruitment and dealing with older experienced soldiers who at one time were under Saddam. In short they rebuilt their strength just in time to take advantage of these conditions already mentioned. As such were in Syria as well operating not in conjunction with the Free Syrian Army but rather in competition, allowing the civil war to alter into a multiple way civil war. Enough so that these so called "moderates" already agreed to not engage ISIS even with our repeated calls to arm these so called "moderates."

    But even before Iraq, by principle ISIS is the product of genocide happening in Syria. There was not enough momentum for the Free Syrian Army in 2012 to topple al-Assad and some of the attacks on these people predate that time frame. Facing al-Assad's intelligence services, military, and violent attacks those in opposition became divided and disenfranchised only to soon thereafter become radicalized and militant. Carrying out operations before 2012. At one time these people turned to the world, were ignored, and embraced the idea of Islamic State independence. That could not by design include "moderates" fighting under the Free Syrian Army banner. Just across the border there were other groups disenfranchised in Iraq, by another problem that from their point of view the US created.

    Syria is the real reason for this and it predates 2012. The break point, between the now established ISIS and al-Qaeda, occurred because of what is happening in Syria. And why? ISIS wants something they have always wanted, independence from other factions in the same religion. And there is zero evidence that arming the Free Syrian Army would have prevented ISIS operations in Iraq or Syria. al-Assad already made the bed we are living in, which is why Obama got punked so badly by Putin on Syria. It is so bad now that in some ways you could look at al-Qaeda and ISIS in competition with one another when you would think the synergy between the two would produce world wide attacks. But what we really see are the fruits of two terrible trees. Iraq's government weakness and how well al-Assad has handled dealing with the US. The "moderates" there will drag this multiple way civil war in Syria for years. There is no evidence our arming them alone would speed things up... or undo what al-Assad already did to those that became ISIS.

  10. #200
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Every war in US history has been paid for via deficit financing.
    according to Bloomberg, we generally raised rates or added a surtax until recently.

    Bush Breaks 150-Year History of Higher U.S. Taxes in Wartime - Bloomberg

    if you want a constant state of war, you should have to pay more to fund it. shared sacrifice.

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