View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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60. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #11
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    This ignorance is 100% on Obama.


    Your ignorance is on you.




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  2. #12
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Your ignorance is on you.




    "The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen." ~ Tommy Smothers
    My ignorance? What the hell are you talking about?

  3. #13
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Me:

    Afghanistan: It was a losing proposition from the beginning. Let's face reality, NOBODY wins in Afghanistan. It was a fool's errand. But, due to circumstances we had to go. I supported us going, and I still feel that we had to, but I also feel we should have withdrawn several years ago. And to be honest, I feel we owe them nothing regarding political stability. Once we were done, we should have left... period.

    Iraq: I was against us invading from the start, and still feel it was dumb. I support(ed) our withdrawal, and still do. Does ISIS change that? That's a tough one. I haven't changed my opinion (regarding withdrawal), but if anything could, this could be it. We'll have to see how it unfolds.
    Are you related to Neville Chamberlain?

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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i was not nearly as anti war when the US first went into Iraq, so i didn't question it as much. plus, 9/11 had just happened. i didn't like that we were doing it, and thought that the WMD angle was a bit shaky, but i can't say that i actively opposed it. i guess the best way i can put it is that i wanted to support it because opposing it felt like not being behind the troops. i definitely respect those who serve in our military.

    now i understand that the more we do over there, the more these idiots are going to recruit and the more things will get unstable. it is impossible to impose a democracy there. and if we cut one snake in half, two even more terrible snakes grow from its corpse. i also have come to understand that we are doing Saudi Arabia's job for them, and we are doing it for free. also, we can't afford it, and we are unwilling to raise taxes to pay for it. not to mention that ****head Assad is actually benefiting from our involvement. there is no good side to take here.

    i support ending foreverwar immediately, bringing all troops home as fast as we can get them out of there, and closing every embassy in a hostile region. enough.
    The truth is that going into Afghananistan and Iraq was the right thing to do. I believe that history will eventually show justification. However we need to stop fighting wars in a half assed way. We need to go back to declaring wars rather then just giving presidents permission. And we need to give the military clear objectives and avoid hamstringing them with limited rules of engagement. The objective should be victory and a contingent of troops should remain behind long enough to guarantee the peace. We still have troops in both Germany and Japan. And Japanese fighters were every bit as fanatical as Islamic extremists. Google Japanese kamikazis. Japan is now settled and peaceful. Suggesting that we should not fight Islamic extremism because we are afraid they will use the fight to recruit more extremists is the same thing as burying our heads in the sand. ISIS could have been destroyed in Syria a year ago, and leaving a contingent of troops behind in Iraq would have prevented any such group from coming back and taking over half of Iraq before Obama admitted there is a problem. And the best recruiting goal he gave the extremists was when he telegraphed his punches by telling the Taliban exactly when we would be leaving Afghanistan.

  5. #15
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    I feel the same way about all parts of the Middle East: the less we're involved in it, the better.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
    This group is the worst enemy of America and its freedoms. It includes, but is not limited to, all Trump supporters.

  6. #16
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    I believe that history will eventually show justification.
    Good luck with that. Cheney and Bush have made that claim since Day 1 but their pages in history are looking darker and darker.

    However we need to stop fighting wars in a half assed way.
    Ah, so the Bush Administration fought "half assed?" What are you expecting, total war?


    And we need to give the military clear objectives and avoid hamstringing them with limited rules of engagement.
    Sounds great. Now whats your master plan to end an ideology with drone strikes and tomahawk missiles?

    The objective should be victory and a contingent of troops should remain behind long enough to guarantee the peace.
    They will be there for a very very long time.

    We still have troops in both Germany and Japan. And Japanese fighters were every bit as fanatical as Islamic extremists.
    Until they realized their emperor was no God. How are you going to convince the radical Muslims their brand of religion is wrong?


    Suggesting that we should not fight Islamic extremism because we are afraid they will use the fight to recruit more extremists is the same thing as burying our heads in the sand.
    No, it is the neocons who bury their heads in the sand. Recognizing our current strategy creates more terrorists is acknowledging reality. We need to strike at the root of the problem to truly end this fundamentalism.


    ISIS could have been destroyed in Syria a year ago,
    And replaced by another terror group...
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  7. #17
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Good luck with that. Cheney and Bush have made that claim since Day 1 but their pages in history are looking darker and darker.
    Historians generally judge based on considerably more time then has passed since 2001 and 2003.


    Ah, so the Bush Administration fought "half assed?" What are you expecting, total war?
    I am not talking about just on the battlefield or the white house. I am talking about congress as well. I don't like war anymore then you do...however if we do go to war, we should be all in and treat it as a war. Give the troops a clear objective of victory and support them in accomplishing it.

    Sounds great. Now whats your master plan to end an ideology with drone strikes and tomahawk missiles?
    I am not the idiot who telegraphed his punches to the enemy by publicly ruling out ground troops.

    They will be there for a very very long time.
    Perhaps, however that's better then leaving too soon and having to come back. We still have a contingent of troops in Germany and Japan.

    Until they realized their emperor was no God. How are you going to convince the radical Muslims their brand of religion is wrong?
    We had similar difficulty convincing Japanese troops that the emperor was not a god. Eventually ISIS will fall due to it's own brutality, however in the meantime we cannot let them run amok. If we do.....they will show up in New York or Los Angeles next.

    No, it is the neocons who bury their heads in the sand. Recognizing our current strategy creates more terrorists is acknowledging reality.
    Ahh...the ole "we should not fight them because we might piss them off" anology.

    We need to strike at the root of the problem to truly end this fundamentalism.
    That will be up to the more moderate Islamic world. Eventually they are going to have to stand up against fanatics taking over their religion. In the meantime, we cannot just sit idly by and allow them to create terrorist states.

    And replaced by another terror group...
    I have my doubts that another group as nasty as ISIS will come along.

  8. #18
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    There are times that military action is justified. Reagan gave fair warning to Gaddafy to leave America and Americans alone. So when Lybian terrorist's fire bombed a peaceful bar occupied by Americans, Reagan immediately sent our fighters to bomb the hell out of one of his strongholds in Lybia. This was pure, simple retaliation with no goal in mind other than swift, terrible, and very expensive/destructive retaliation. And it worked. We didn't hear a peep out of Gaddafy for decades after that.

    It was necessary for us to react swiftly, terribly, and destructively to the attack on 9/11. We picked the right target and were extremely effective in taking out most of the enemy. Then with mission accomplished, we should have returned home. It would have been seen as just and appropriate retaliation by the rest of the world and would unlikely have encouraged other such attacks.

    It was necessary for us to get rid of the albatross hung around our neck that Iraq had become. Ten years of sanctions had not only enormously enriched, emboldened, and made Saddam Hussein more vile and cruel, but it was funding his export of terrorist activities. Meanwhile most of the Iraqi people were suffering terribly. But we should have gone in with overwhelming force, done the inspections that Saddam had not allowed, destroyed all the chemical warfare making plants and war making machine, confiscated the weapons from Saddam's Republican Guard, taken out Hussein, and left.

    If the attack on Lybia is a serious and deadly retaliation for capturing and murdering our people, so be it. If they know it will happen again if they do it again, it definitely could be a deterrence for that sort of thing. But if it is a wag the dog kind of thing in advance of the November election or is supposed to be seen as some kind of brave, noble thing with no idea of what victory will look like, then that's a bad thing.

    I'm withholding my opinion about it until I know more about what they are actually doing.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #19
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement, given the recent events with ISIS and current status of Afghanistan, that you did before?

    Think back to your opinion when Bush II first invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Think back to when Obama withdrew from Iraq. Think about the current alleged wind down in Afghanistan. Doesn't really matter what your opinion was, just ask yourself if you feel the same now as you did then. And why do you feel the same or differently.

    Please elaborate.
    I had to answer it's complicated. As far as Afghanistan, I supported in that it was what had to be done. Honestly, the idea of just getting out wasn't, IMO a good idea. I don't like nation building necessarily, but we did what had to be done. I think in many respects we've done everything that we could do for them. In the end, democracy isn't going to last if they don't want it there. I'm not sure that they want it enough, but it's not our country.

    Iraq I wasn't thrilled about, mostly because of Afghanistan. Going on two nation building exercises at the same time seemed to me at the time to be just a bad idea. Still does. Saddam was a bad guy, and eventually needed to go. Unfortunately, it really doesn't seem like that one was thought through - we created a power vacuum, and then let it degenerate into a ****storm. I don't know if the thinking was that they were ready with a democracy just in case, but it really seems like it was.

    My criticism of both of these wars, not to mention the situation in Ukraine is that we didn't really teach anyone how a democratically elected government works. Afghanistan had two men claiming to be the "rightful" winner of the election, and neither was willing to accept that they lost. In Iraq, we didn't really teach them that you have to treat minorities with a little respect and share power. In Ukraine, we're backing the people who "want" democracy as long as the other guy doesn't win.

    If we want democratic experiments to work, we have to teach them somehow that it doesn't mean always getting your way. But it's even emblematic in how our government is run now - nobody here seems to want to share power without having a temper tantrum (left or right).


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  10. #20
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    I think it perfectly acceptable to be continuously challenged when considering foreign policy engagements. That's why I selected, "It's complicated." I, myself, had curiously moved back and forth between support and skepticism in engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've settled on being inherently uninterested in democratic nation building, but not against destroying terrorist cells. Whilst I'm continuing to be skeptical of the need for a significant war presently and am concerned with its lasting impact on America's bottom line, I am nevertheless torn on whether or not such sacrifices may be inherently necessary to prevent attacks on our soil or those of our choicest allies.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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