View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #181
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    Jack Hays's Avatar
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    LOL There was nothing stabile about Maliki's tyrannical government. That is why you think we should have stayed against the Iraqi's will I bet. We went to Iraq to free them not put another tyrant in place. They are closer now to stability then when Maliki was anointed by Bush.
    Had we committed to a longer presence we would have had more leverage to mitigate Maliki's negative inclinations.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  2. #182
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    As I said, you obviously haven't been there.
    Is that required?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  3. #183
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Right. Otherwise I would know how much fun suicide bombers are.
    Iraq's population is majority Shia, who were oppressed under Saddam. 100% of that group is glad he's gone. Among the Sunnis the more moderate and cosmopolitan urban population is also glad Saddam is gone, although they support opposition parties.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #184
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Is that required?
    As Thomas Carlyle said, the world is a book, and those who do not travel do not read.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  5. #185
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    As Thomas Carlyle said, the world is a book, and those who do not travel do not read.
    I see.

    That was a long-winded 'yes'.

    Duly noted.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  6. #186
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    GWB's planners envisioned a long term US military presence. Had that long term presence been sustained we would have had a great deal more leverage to mitigate the negative effects of Maliki's sectarian inclinations. Regardless of what BHO said during his campaign, it was prudent of GWB to leave him the opportunity to do something else (something wiser) if he changed his mind. In early 2012 the moderate opposition were the only forces in the field against Asad in Syria. The extremists only flowed in after the fighting stalemated because the moderates did not have enough weapons to prevail. Had we helped the moderates in 2012 there would be no ISIS today.
    The rhetoric does not match the reality of the situation. You can keep saying that Bush 43's "planners envisioned a long term US military presence," but if Maliki's position changed on US troops immunity then it does not matter what those plans were. At that point you are talking about a level of occupation that voids Iraq government authority for law in their nation without such immunity clauses agreed to by all parties. Bush 43 did not hand Obama options, he handed Obama a mess. If he stayed it would be with real conflict against the goals of the Iraq government (and odds are with the various factions not real happy with Maliki in the first place,) but Obama ended up leaving and instability showed itself in short order. But even if all of that did not exist we are still talking about a long term occupation that has a cost, with no real assurance that the situation is stable. You trying to tell me North Korea and South Korea is a stable situation?

    Also it is devoid of reality to suggest those that make up ISIS did not exist in "early 2012." They were already there and taking advantage of a long term civil war would be no different if we armed these so called "moderates" to the teeth. I suspect if anything a percentage of those arms would end up in ISIS hands, just as where some of those we handed to Iraq's terrible military ended up. There is no truth to the notion that helping moderates in 2012 would have prevented ISIS today, that is again just rhetoric that does not match the reality that those people were already there. Just waiting for the right time to strike.

  7. #187
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Iraq's population is majority Shia, who were oppressed under Saddam. 100% of that group is glad he's gone. Among the Sunnis the more moderate and cosmopolitan urban population is also glad Saddam is gone, although they support opposition parties.
    Yet none of this accounts for those who were there and eventually became ISIS. They all did not move in magically in late 2012.

  8. #188
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    The rhetoric does not match the reality of the situation. You can keep saying that Bush 43's "planners envisioned a long term US military presence," but if Maliki's position changed on US troops immunity then it does not matter what those plans were. At that point you are talking about a level of occupation that voids Iraq government authority for law in their nation without such immunity clauses agreed to by all parties. Bush 43 did not hand Obama options, he handed Obama a mess. If he stayed it would be with real conflict against the goals of the Iraq government (and odds are with the various factions not real happy with Maliki in the first place,) but Obama ended up leaving and instability showed itself in short order. But even if all of that did not exist we are still talking about a long term occupation that has a cost, with no real assurance that the situation is stable. You trying to tell me North Korea and South Korea is a stable situation?

    Also it is devoid of reality to suggest those that make up ISIS did not exist in "early 2012." They were already there and taking advantage of a long term civil war would be no different if we armed these so called "moderates" to the teeth. I suspect if anything a percentage of those arms would end up in ISIS hands, just as where some of those we handed to Iraq's terrible military ended up. There is no truth to the notion that helping moderates in 2012 would have prevented ISIS today, that is again just rhetoric that does not match the reality that those people were already there. Just waiting for the right time to strike.
    Had we acted in Syria in 2012 the civil war would have ended that year. There would never have been an ISIS. Had BHO not talked so openly of leaving Iraq completely, and had he not reduced planned US force levels below a worthwhile figure, Maliki would have been easier to deal with.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  9. #189
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Had we acted in Syria in 2012 the civil war would have ended that year. There would never have been an ISIS. Had BHO not talked so openly of leaving Iraq completely, and had he not reduced planned US force levels below a worthwhile figure, Maliki would have been easier to deal with.
    All rhetoric but with little offered as to why. Sounds too much like a partisan effort to go after Obama, and less like reasoned debate as to why the Middle East is such a mess.

  10. #190
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Yet none of this accounts for those who were there and eventually became ISIS. They all did not move in magically in late 2012.
    ISIS is a tiny minority that would never have mobilized were it not for the vacuum in Syria.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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