View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

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  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
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Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #171
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    You obviously have no understanding of the nature of the Saddam regime. Nor have you been to Iraq. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis would not trade what they have now for what they had then.
    You must be kidding.....they have had a constant war since we invaded. Nothing is worse than war.

  2. #172
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Why did we spend 10 years and billion$ to train and equip their military then? How would propping up another sectarian regime like Saddams help stabilize the region? Did you think we would be there holding their hands forever? Then there's the fact that they wanted us out and we were taking casualties daily because of it. Is that the respect you have for our military? Make them be policemen in foreign land and let them keep be maimed and dying because we failed to make Iraq stabile?
    By 2009 Iraq was stabilized and on its way to normalization. The role envisioned for US forces was similar to that played by US forces in South Korea since 1953. Failure to follow through on that vision has contributed mightily to creating the problems today.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  3. #173
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    You must be kidding.....they have had a constant war since we invaded. Nothing is worse than war.
    As I said, you obviously haven't been there.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #174
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    GWB's planners envisioned a long term US military presence in a stabilized Iraq (as it was in 2009). The SOFA was left to be renegotiated in 2011 so as not to tie his successor's hands. No one imagined BHO would withdraw altogether. In 2012 there was no need whatsoever for US forces in Syria. Local forces wanted only weapons to do their own fighting.
    Several problems here. One, even Bush 43 did not obtain all that he wanted in negotiation to ensure long term occupation of Iraq into Obama's time. Especially when it came to immunity concerns. If it were otherwise then Bush 43 would have had plans to stay indefinite with a moderate force (at additional costs despite what Iraq wanted.) Two, Iraq was not all that stabilized the further we went with this weakend Iraq government who themselves excluded so many. They made this mess worse, just as our withdraw created opprotunity for others. Three, Obama campaigned on leaving Iraq so it would be odd to suggest it was likely that McCain would have stayed long term given point one. If Bush 43 could not negotiate for indefinite occupation, how could have McCain? Four, there is no rational way to group all of Al-Assad's opposition into one "local group." Those that make up ISIS are not quite the same as those that make up "moderates" in today's terms, else we would not be talking about arming any of them. Lastly, these "moderates" in Syria have no interest in engaging ISIS. They share a common enemy making our involvement there questionable in who benefits long term. Obama got punked with this whole "line in the sand" nonsense.

  5. #175
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    By 2009 Iraq was stabilized and on its way to normalization. The role envisioned for US forces was similar to that played by US forces in South Korea since 1953. Failure to follow through on that vision has contributed mightily to creating the problems today.
    LOL There was nothing stabile about Maliki's tyrannical government. That is why you think we should have stayed against the Iraqi's will I bet. We went to Iraq to free them not put another tyrant in place. They are closer now to stability then when Maliki was anointed by Bush.

  6. #176
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Bush had FIVE YEARS to train the Iraqi military, if they're not ready, then they're NOT ready! Think about what's surrounding the Islamic State. A very capable Iranian army, Saudi Arabia with the worlds fourth largest military, the very capable military of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey. Why in the hell are we even talking about intervening/interfering. Those regional powers can and should be forced to deal with their problem.
    We agree.

  7. #177
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    By 2009 Iraq was stabilized and on its way to normalization. The role envisioned for US forces was similar to that played by US forces in South Korea since 1953. Failure to follow through on that vision has contributed mightily to creating the problems today.
    Perhaps, but the new Iraq government did not seem to excited about the idea else negotiations for our long term occupation would have occured differently. For both Bush 43 and Obama, who wanted entirely different things.

  8. #178
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    As I said, you obviously haven't been there.
    Right. Otherwise I would know how much fun suicide bombers are.

  9. #179
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Several problems here. One, even Bush 43 did not obtain all that he wanted in negotiation to ensure long term occupation of Iraq into Obama's time. Especially when it came to immunity concerns. If it were otherwise then Bush 43 would have had plans to stay indefinite with a moderate force (at additional costs despite what Iraq wanted.) Two, Iraq was not all that stabilized the further we went with this weakend Iraq government who themselves excluded so many. They made this mess worse, just as our withdraw created opprotunity for others. Three, Obama campaigned on leaving Iraq so it would be odd to suggest it was likely that McCain would have stayed long term given point one. If Bush 43 could not negotiate for indefinite occupation, how could have McCain? Four, there is no rational way to group all of Al-Assad's opposition into one "local group." Those that make up ISIS are not quite the same as those that make up "moderates" in today's terms, else we would not be talking about arming any of them. Lastly, these "moderates" in Syria have no interest in engaging ISIS. They share a common enemy making our involvement there questionable in who benefits long term. Obama got punked with this whole "line in the sand" nonsense.
    GWB's planners envisioned a long term US military presence. Had that long term presence been sustained we would have had a great deal more leverage to mitigate the negative effects of Maliki's sectarian inclinations. Regardless of what BHO said during his campaign, it was prudent of GWB to leave him the opportunity to do something else (something wiser) if he changed his mind. In early 2012 the moderate opposition were the only forces in the field against Asad in Syria. The extremists only flowed in after the fighting stalemated because the moderates did not have enough weapons to prevail. Had we helped the moderates in 2012 there would be no ISIS today.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  10. #180
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    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement, given the recent events with ISIS and current status of Afghanistan, that you did before?

    Think back to your opinion when Bush II first invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Think back to when Obama withdrew from Iraq. Think about the current alleged wind down in Afghanistan. Doesn't really matter what your opinion was, just ask yourself if you feel the same now as you did then. And why do you feel the same or differently.

    Please elaborate.
    Why would I feel differently? Obama's simply being pragmatic. You can't compare what we're doing now with less than 2K troops in Iraq (all of which are training/support/security personnel, and NOT for combat) to having 140K there like we had under Bush 43. You can't compare the 10K or so that will be remaining in Afghanistan to prop up the regime to the, what was it, 70K or more under Bush 43.

    Obama is right to drag the other Arab nations into the fight against ISIS. Let them do the grunt work. That way, when all is said and done, the Arab League will have asserted its authority and (hopefully) restored some semblance of order. If we get them used to conducting air strikes in addition to sending in ground troops, if we can get them used to taking care of their own security, then sooner or later we won't need to be there at all.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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