View Poll Results: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement

Voters
60. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I still feel the same.

    30 50.00%
  • It's complicated.

    17 28.33%
  • No, I have switched my thoughts.

    5 8.33%
  • The whole thing makes my head hurt.

    8 13.33%
Page 16 of 39 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 160 of 382

Thread: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

  1. #151
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    09-11-17 @ 03:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,386

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's still pretty much the same. I was against our interventionism before and against it now. It only makes matters worse.
    Ditto.

  2. #152
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    23,354

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    There are times that military action is justified. Reagan gave fair warning to Gaddafy to leave America and Americans alone. So when Lybian terrorist's fire bombed a peaceful bar occupied by Americans, Reagan immediately sent our fighters to bomb the hell out of one of his strongholds in Lybia. This was pure, simple retaliation with no goal in mind other than swift, terrible, and very expensive/destructive retaliation. And it worked. We didn't hear a peep out of Gaddafy for decades after that.

    It was necessary for us to react swiftly, terribly, and destructively to the attack on 9/11. We picked the right target and were extremely effective in taking out most of the enemy. Then with mission accomplished, we should have returned home. It would have been seen as just and appropriate retaliation by the rest of the world and would unlikely have encouraged other such attacks.

    It was necessary for us to get rid of the albatross hung around our neck that Iraq had become. Ten years of sanctions had not only enormously enriched, emboldened, and made Saddam Hussein more vile and cruel, but it was funding his export of terrorist activities. Meanwhile most of the Iraqi people were suffering terribly. But we should have gone in with overwhelming force, done the inspections that Saddam had not allowed, destroyed all the chemical warfare making plants and war making machine, confiscated the weapons from Saddam's Republican Guard, taken out Hussein, and left.

    If the attack on Lybia is a serious and deadly retaliation for capturing and murdering our people, so be it. If they know it will happen again if they do it again, it definitely could be a deterrence for that sort of thing. But if it is a wag the dog kind of thing in advance of the November election or is supposed to be seen as some kind of brave, noble thing with no idea of what victory will look like, then that's a bad thing.

    I'm withholding my opinion about it until I know more about what they are actually doing.
    So you think we helped the Iraqi people? We helped 100,000 to die and made those that survived lives worse. We exchanged one oppressive sectarian Govt. for another. How did that help anything?

  3. #153
    Traveler

    Jack Hays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,765
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So you think we helped the Iraqi people? We helped 100,000 to die and made those that survived lives worse. We exchanged one oppressive sectarian Govt. for another. How did that help anything?
    You obviously have no understanding of the nature of the Saddam regime. Nor have you been to Iraq. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis would not trade what they have now for what they had then.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #154
    Global Moderator
    Moderator
    Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    37,069

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh yes of course the "elite" would still keep their kids away from the front lines, but the rest, those Americans that are so quick to jump on the band wagon in support of war, wouldn't. Therefore we might find less support. Last summer, 70% of Americans were opposed to any military action in Syria! this summer 70% support military action in Syria. Dear lord, it's cynical I know, but Americans never are going to learn what politicians really do. IMO, Jack taxes to the ceiling every time we roll out our military and pay for it in real time, and reinstate that damn draft and let's see how much Americans can be scared into conflict.
    there is no need to send kids off to die against their will. there are better ways to get Americans to demand a halt to a perpetual state of war.

    way #1 : hit them in the pocketbook hard every time there is a US military action. we need to choose our fights very carefully, and that is the simplest way to ensure that we do.

  5. #155
    A sinister place...
    OrphanSlug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    08-08-17 @ 02:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,860

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So you think we helped the Iraqi people? We helped 100,000 to die and made those that survived lives worse. We exchanged one oppressive sectarian Govt. for another. How did that help anything?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    You obviously have no understanding of the nature of the Saddam regime. Nor have you been to Iraq. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis would not trade what they have now for what they had then.
    Except that we are asking you to look at a much larger picture. I would agree with you that in some ways the Saddam regime was worse than current Iraq government, but would counter argue that current Iraq government allowed for another condition to materialize. That would be those that make up ISIS, and they were already there, to take advantage of a weak Iraq military we left behind. But more to the point we are seeing the aptitude of those in Iraq, a faction driven source of division with no real intention to get along with one another.

    ISIS is not looking for more presence in the Iraq government, they are looking for an isolated independent state they completely and ideologically control that would span into parts of Syria (perhaps even other nations when all is said and done.) You do not have to visit Iraq to understand the history of the region and the dominant religion in play. There are enough splinters to suggest real understanding of the multiple way civil war in Syria without having to visit that nation either. Even if the "overwhelming majority of Iraqis would not trade what they have now for what they had then" that does not negate that what they do have now cannot control their nation without outside help, putting the US and others in a costly position going forward. So now we get a 4th President in a row to drop a bomb on the same nation.

    In a way iguanaman was right, all we really did was exchange one ideology for another and put us in the fiscal position of having to crutch that exchanged ideology going forward (who also have no real interest in getting along with their ideological competition.) We are not going back into Iraq with airstrikes and "boots on the ground training" from a position of strength. Everything still hinges on the effectiveness of our ability to do what we failed at several times over, influence and educate a current Iraq government to be strong enough to control their nation.

    Since we are doing little different this time too, I would question what is the expectation we will get different results? And keep in mind there is real expense with this lesson we refuse to acknowledge.

  6. #156
    Traveler

    Jack Hays's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,765
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Except that we are asking you to look at a much larger picture. I would agree with you that in some ways the Saddam regime was worse than current Iraq government, but would counter argue that current Iraq government allowed for another condition to materialize. That would be those that make up ISIS, and they were already there, to take advantage of a weak Iraq military we left behind. But more to the point we are seeing the aptitude of those in Iraq, a faction driven source of division with no real intention to get along with one another.

    ISIS is not looking for more presence in the Iraq government, they are looking for an isolated independent state they completely and ideologically control that would span into parts of Syria (perhaps even other nations when all is said and done.) You do not have to visit Iraq to understand the history of the region and the dominant religion in play. There are enough splinters to suggest real understanding of the multiple way civil war in Syria without having to visit that nation either. Even if the "overwhelming majority of Iraqis would not trade what they have now for what they had then" that does not negate that what they do have now cannot control their nation without outside help, putting the US and others in a costly position going forward. So now we get a 4th President in a row to drop a bomb on the same nation.

    In a way iguanaman was right, all we really did was exchange one ideology for another and put us in the fiscal position of having to crutch that exchanged ideology going forward (who also have no real interest in getting along with their ideological competition.) We are not going back into Iraq with airstrikes and "boots on the ground training" from a position of strength. Everything still hinges on the effectiveness of our ability to do what we failed at several times over, influence and educate a current Iraq government to be strong enough to control their nation.

    Since we are doing little different this time too, I would question what is the expectation we will get different results? And keep in mind there is real expense with this lesson we refuse to acknowledge.
    Iraq's military weakness is a result of the complete US withdrawal in 2011, something no responsible planner would have advocated. The growth of ISIS is a result of US hesitation in Syria. Given more thoughtful and courageous US leadership, the current crisis need never have occurred.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  7. #157
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles area
    Last Seen
    07-19-17 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,868

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    Combating aggression with aggression is like combating the national debt by adding more debt
    Why of course it is! Combating aggression with aggression never solves anything. That's why the U.S. never should have overreacted like it did on December 7, 1941. Every time U.S. forces killed a Japanese, it just made more Japanese mad at us. If only we had tried to see things their way, I'm sure everything would have been fine.

  8. #158
    A sinister place...
    OrphanSlug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    08-08-17 @ 02:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,860

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Iraq's military weakness is a result of the complete US withdrawal in 2011, something no responsible planner would have advocated. The growth of ISIS is a result of US hesitation in Syria. Given more thoughtful and courageous US leadership, the current crisis need never have occurred.
    So you say, but that would mean doing then what we are doing now... continued expense in dollars and potential lives to occupy of Iraq (in terms Bush 43 could not even negotiate for at the time,) and the occupation of Syria as well in an ongoing manner. The "line in the sand" nonsense from Obama was aimed at al-Assad, and if we had attacked and removed him we would be facing there what we face in Iraq now. A government of "moderates" dealing with various factions who do not agree. Again, those that make up ISIS have been there looking for opportunity to capitalize on. What you are suggesting is taking one of the longest conflicts the US has been engaged in and extending it outward with indefinite determination and including a 2nd nation to occupy as well in the exact same terms. So much for fiscal conservatism.

    The harsh truth is there really is only two answers at this point. One is our participation in genocide, the other is sitting back and letting them engage in genocide against one another. I am questioning our participation in forcing by long term occupation a more peaceful coexistence between factions that clearly want anything but a peaceful coexistence. Again there is no aptitude among all these ideologies to get along, and we clearly have been unsuccessful and influencing that with Western governmental and sociological reasoning. Why do you think it would have worked with a long term occupation of both Iraq and Syria?

  9. #159
    Sage
    ObamacareFail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Earth
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,960

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    But are you personally willing to pay more in taxes to fund perpetual war?
    No.....I am not. And none are needed.

  10. #160
    Global Moderator
    Moderator
    Helix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    37,069

    Re: Do you still feel the same now about our middle east involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
    No.....I am not. And none are needed.
    wrong, but thanks for at least being honest.

Page 16 of 39 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •