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Parents: Punishing Kids [W:361]

is it ever allowable for a Parent to punish their child with force?

  • Yes

    Votes: 43 68.3%
  • No

    Votes: 12 19.0%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 8 12.7%

  • Total voters
    63
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Tell it, Vesper.

This is not to say that ADD/ADHD don't present; they do, and when they do, the school should alert parents to behavioral problems that may be symptomatic.

You're right; parents hollering aren't exactly modeling self-control. And then there are the too-permissive parents who simply tolerate bad behaviors. Someone I love very much mothered her two sons that way (and it began with absolutely no sounds when the baby is sleeping--no TV in another room, no conversations above a whisper....). Older one was kicked out of every kindergarten and elementary school he attended, including the pricey private ones for which his grandparents had to pay.

The younger one was my son's playmate. When they were 4, and we were all in my friend's backyard, her boy picked up a 2 x 4 (dad was building a tree house) and hit my kid in the back as hard as he could. My friend's response was to sweetly reply, "Now that wasn't very nice. I'm afraid your friend is going to have to leave now." Her kid's response was to turn the garden hose on his mother at full blast and not joking, and my friend just stood there and fought a 4-year old, all the while talking calmly about how it was important that he give her the hose.

Took everything I had not to go all ninja myself. All these years later, unbelievable!
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Tell it, Vesper.

This is not to say that ADD/ADHD don't present; they do, and when they do, the school should alert parents to behavioral problems that may be symptomatic.

You're right; parents hollering aren't exactly modeling self-control. And then there are the too-permissive parents who simply tolerate bad behaviors. Someone I love very much mothered her two sons that way (and it began with absolutely no sounds when the baby is sleeping--no TV in another room, no conversations above a whisper....). Older one was kicked out of every kindergarten and elementary school he attended, including the pricey private ones for which his grandparents had to pay.

The younger one was my son's playmate. When they were 4, and we were all in my friend's backyard, her boy picked up a 2 x 4 (dad was building a tree house) and hit my kid in the back as hard as he could. My friend's response was to sweetly reply, "Now that wasn't very nice. I'm afraid your friend is going to have to leave now." Her kid's response was to turn the garden hose on his mother at full blast and not joking, and my friend just stood there and fought a 4-year old, all the while talking calmly about how it was important that he give her the hose.

Took everything I had not to go all ninja myself. All these years later, unbelievable!


Yikes. I had a somewhat similar situation when Son #1 was about 8 or 9. In my circle of friends was a dysfunctional father-son combo... the father let the son run him and dominate his life and get away with almost anything. Once the other man's son punched my son in front of all of us, for no reason. We were ALL staring at him like "are you NOT going to do something about that?" Well, basically he did nothing and even defended his son saying we didn't know what might have happened when we weren't looking. I just about blew my stack.

Then later in the day Junior was playing with a machete he'd picked up from where we were cutting brush, swinging it around haphazardly near the other children..... ARG. Again, nothing done other than a mild reprimand which clearly made NO impression.

After that I rarely brought my son around his unless I couldn't avoid it, and I told Sn1 if that boy ever hit him again he had my permission to beat the snot out of the brat, and if Permissive Paw didn't like it I'd whup HIS ass.

It actually wasn't too long after that when that guy was excluded from our little clique... turns out not only was he a ****ty father he also had a bad drinking problem...
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

:lol: I remember the bicycle ramps and all the trick riding on the bikes. It ended up with a broken arm. :) My son was a little dare devil. The day he got his driver's license is the day my hair started to turn gray. But parents these days seem to have really short fuses. The point I was trying to make is a parent really needs to remain calm and access the situation. Today, so many just start shooting off their mouths going on and on, screaming out of control when a paddling is swift and over and then forgiveness follows and it is forgotten in the sense you move on. You don't drag it out for weeks and months with groundings etc. Life is precious, give out the correction and move on. A parent should be focusing on building up not tearing down. Not everything a child does wrong warrants punishment. Sometimes the things they do that end up to be wrong were with the best of intentions. I can remember a time when my daughter and son wanted to get the lawn cut on a Friday afternoon before their dad got home so he wouldn't have to do it on Saturday. I thought it was sweet and gave the Okay. What I didn't know is they would fill the oil compartment with lighter fluid as the oil and lighter fluid were both in the same red bottle. Saturday came and we had to purchase a new lawnmower.

That's priceless! :lamo: :thumbs: What I find objectionable are the parents that let their kids run around wild in restaurants and other places, while they totally ignore them! WTH are they thinking?
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

That's priceless! :lamo: :thumbs: What I find objectionable are the parents that let their kids run around wild in restaurants and other places, while they totally ignore them! WTH are they thinking?

I think a lot of parents are "out to lunch", they only see what they want to see.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Yikes. I had a somewhat similar situation when Son #1 was about 8 or 9. In my circle of friends was a dysfunctional father-son combo... the father let the son run him and dominate his life and get away with almost anything. Once the other man's son punched my son in front of all of us, for no reason. We were ALL staring at him like "are you NOT going to do something about that?" Well, basically he did nothing and even defended his son saying we didn't know what might have happened when we weren't looking. I just about blew my stack.

Then later in the day Junior was playing with a machete he'd picked up from where we were cutting brush, swinging it around haphazardly near the other children..... ARG. Again, nothing done other than a mild reprimand which clearly made NO impression.

After that I rarely brought my son around his unless I couldn't avoid it, and I told Sn1 if that boy ever hit him again he had my permission to beat the snot out of the brat, and if Permissive Paw didn't like it I'd whup HIS ass.

It actually wasn't too long after that when that guy was excluded from our little clique... turns out not only was he a ****ty father he also had a bad drinking problem...

I hope that kid turned out "okay." My friend's sons, to the amazement of everyone, including all four grandparents, ultimately did.

I guess I'm never going to get over that kid picking up the 2 x 4 and hitting my kid as hard as he could for no reason and his mother doing nothing. Fortunately for our relationship, my friend and I have always lived 100 miles apart, so it was easy to keep my kids away from hers except a couple of times a year.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I hope that kid turned out "okay." My friend's sons, to the amazement of everyone, including all four grandparents, ultimately did.

I guess I'm never going to get over that kid picking up the 2 x 4 and hitting my kid as hard as he could for no reason and his mother doing nothing. Fortunately for our relationship, my friend and I have always lived 100 miles apart, so it was easy to keep my kids away from hers except a couple of times a year.



well I hopes so too, but our group consensus was that he would be voted "Most Likely to Become a Serial Killer" in HS.... :(
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

well I hopes so too, but our group consensus was that he would be voted "Most Likely to Become a Serial Killer" in HS.... :(

Sadly, regarding my friend's older son, that is exactly what I and my family (and, I'm sure, his grandparents secretly) thought. I had brought a kitten in a carrier to my mother's home, and I caught this 5-year old dropping the carrier hard and poking the kitten with a stick. He wasn't playing. His mother's response that time was to remove him to the balcony and sit on the swing sharing a pbj. Never scolded him, nothing. We were just agog.

He never finished school and was in constant juvenile trouble with the law. Spent time in a mental hospital and also in jail as a kid. And then one day, after bragging that he was so smart that he could ace the GED, he gave it a go and did. And enrolled in a 2-year college and moved to another state where cousins lived, and across the hall was a deputy sheriff who invited him on a ride-along, and the next thing we knew, he had enrolled in the police academy. Amazing.

But he didn't cop for long; he then enrolled in the Army and went over to Iraq. He's back now and finishing a degree in Middle Eastern studies, and I secretly think he's a double-naught spy, LOL. Seriously.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Shouting at a child is generally very effective. If it's not working then maybe you have over used it for none problems. Maybe this issue you want to use force is also a none problem.

Just maybe. Or perhaps your child is naughty. It might be best to stand back and have a think about it before you reach for the stick.

Or maybe the kid understands that yelling doesn't hurt. Yelling is a very ineffective way of disciplining a child. My father did it all the time and to this day I tune out anybody that yells.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I would say the same for a parent who uses an "open hand".

In my experience, adults who use physical force against children usually do so for one of two reasons: 1. They are ill equipped to be a parent and have not taken the time to learn proper discipline methods or 2. They become extremely frustrated and act out of rage.

What do you do with a kid that calculates the consequence into what he does and gladly accepts that consequence?

My son will gladly loose his video game when he gets caught doing something he knows is wrong.

He knows taking away the video game did not hurt him.

That is a very dangerous child in that he calculates the consequence and does the wrong thing anyway.

The bigger he gets the worse the things are going to get that he does.

What do you do with a child like that?
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

What do you do with a kid that calculates the consequence into what he does and gladly accepts that consequence?

My son will gladly loose his video game when he gets caught doing something he knows is wrong.

He knows taking away the video game did not hurt him.

That is a very dangerous child in that he calculates the consequence and does the wrong thing anyway.

The bigger he gets the worse the things are going to get that he does.

What do you do with a child like that?

I was a kid like that. When I was little my dad was trying his approach in parenting that would eventually give in completely to my mothers, but only after it was proven to be a failure. His approach was basically that I was to follow his command and that whatever objection I had was not important. One of his punishments that he would issue was the idea that you should take away your kids possessions and enjoyments when they act up. I responded very badly to this approach and saw it as insult that deserved to be challenged head on. I decided that I didn't care if he wanted to ground me from playing video games nor did I care if he wanted to bar me from really anything he could muster. It didn't matter to me anymore. There was plenty of time when I had nothing except my bed and even then in time when he found out I would do nothing but lay in bed he banned me from even going in my room until bedtime. His goal was to force me to do what he wanted, and I am not the kind of person that accepts that kind of treatment, so I just flat out refused to do anything at all. In time as I said, he dropped it and at that point my behavior improved.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

So do you have kids yourself? I ask because irrespective of your parents' parenting, payback with your own kids really is a bitch. When I used to call my mother to complain about my kids, she'd roar in delight, "You were worse!"

Of course, she was entirely mistaken; my recollection was that I was nearly perfect and also tremendously put upon by mean and definitely uncool parents. ;)

In fact, one of my guiding principles as a parent (generally) was to do the opposite of my parents. For example, I trusted my kids unless/until they gave me a reason not to. And my discipline was appropriate, not insane. Still, karma is what it is, LOL.
 
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Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

What do you do with a kid that calculates the consequence into what he does and gladly accepts that consequence?

My son will gladly loose his video game when he gets caught doing something he knows is wrong.

He knows taking away the video game did not hurt him.

That is a very dangerous child in that he calculates the consequence and does the wrong thing anyway.

The bigger he gets the worse the things are going to get that he does.

What do you do with a child like that?
I was, and still am, that child.

First, that child does not respect you, at least not as much as you think. I'm sure that child has all kinds of warm mushy feelings for you and all, but when it comes down to obaying your word, respect for you isn't there to stop him or even make him feel sorry afterwards.

Second, your punishments have to make the risk greater than the reward.

No punishment will work if he doesn't respect you. He'll just circumvent the punishment, and after a point he won't even try to hide that he went around you.

That's when you'll go insane.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I was a kid like that. When I was little my dad was trying his approach in parenting that would eventually give in completely to my mothers, but only after it was proven to be a failure. His approach was basically that I was to follow his command and that whatever objection I had was not important. One of his punishments that he would issue was the idea that you should take away your kids possessions and enjoyments when they act up. I responded very badly to this approach and saw it as insult that deserved to be challenged head on. I decided that I didn't care if he wanted to ground me from playing video games nor did I care if he wanted to bar me from really anything he could muster. It didn't matter to me anymore. There was plenty of time when I had nothing except my bed and even then in time when he found out I would do nothing but lay in bed he banned me from even going in my room until bedtime. His goal was to force me to do what he wanted, and I am not the kind of person that accepts that kind of treatment, so I just flat out refused to do anything at all. In time as I said, he dropped it and at that point my behavior improved.
My step mother tried the whole "I'll take your things away" aproach.

There was a ghost in the house...everytime she took something of mine away, something of hers vanished.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

So do you have kids yourself? I ask because irrespective of your parents' parenting, payback with your own kids really is a bitch. When I used to call my mother to complain about my kids, she'd roar in delight, "You were worse!"

Of course, she was entirely mistaken; my recollection was that I was nearly perfect and also tremendously put upon by mean and definitely uncool parents. ;)

In fact, one of my guiding principles as a parent (generally) was to do the opposite of my parents. For example, I trusted my kids unless/until they gave me a reason not to. And my discipline was appropriate, not insane. Still, karma is what it is, LOL.

My relationship with my dad is still pretty awful, but I think it really does all go back to this whole fight with him over the way he would punish me. It also however deeper than that and goes really into his personality and how he relates to people. For the longest time I didn't care for how he treated my mother as he would ignore her from time to time or generally disregard her objections to certain things. I hated that aspect of him and in some ways I still do to this day. I don't agree with how he approaches life, how he approaches people, how he will insult them behind their back, really I don't like him all that much at all. Hell, even how he drives down the road is something that annoys me. He is reckless and disregards other people and then becomes a huge hypocrite when people do the same kind of stuff to him on the road. He annoys me and I frankly consider him to a rude asshole. The only real reason I tolerate him is because I came to realize that my mother relied on him for strength. My mother was abused heavily as a child and it wasn't until they were apart for a while did I start to see her crack a little bit under pressure or when things weren't going her way. I came to understand that the way he was and what he was doing was beneficial to her as it kept her together and strong enough to handle life. That they were regardless of my objections to him a good match and belonged together even if for the longest time I didn't see it.

I have mentioned before that I was kicked out, but I never said exactly how that went down. When I was eighteen me and my dad got into a fight and we both got some good hits in, but before it was concluded my mother started yelling and demanding it stop at once. We both stopped right then of course, but that was the end of my time living at home. I wouldn't talk to my father again until about three years ago. It however wasn't lasting change and since then I haven't said a word to him outside of discussions about politics via e-mail. I have no idea why that is, but one day he e-mailed me his opinion on something and since then we talk about politics regularly. I have no interest in seeing him or talking to him in real life, but I suppose e-mail communication is something. Knowing my mom, it was her idea for him to start the e-mails as she badly wants our relationship to return to how it was. Sadly, my relationship with my dad has pretty much always been poor and I don't think she really knows how bad it was.

As for me, yes, I have a daughter that is thirteen and a boy on the way. My daughter is a straight A student, and generally doesn't get in to much trouble. The only real issue going on right now with her is her desire to get a nose ring, and her constant ramblings about it. Of course, I have already told her that I will spend no time or money on the issue, and if she wants it she can spend her own money and time in getting it. If that means she has to wait until she can drive, so be it. I will not buy her a nose ring. Outside of that just normal stuff really.
 
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Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Or maybe the kid understands that yelling doesn't hurt. Yelling is a very ineffective way of disciplining a child. My father did it all the time and to this day I tune out anybody that yells.



I rarely raise my voice to children. On the rare occasions I do, it is the deep-throated 'voice of command' issuing a terse ultimatum, and rarely ever is that disregarded.... because they know that's their last warning before....


 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

What do you do with a kid that calculates the consequence into what he does and gladly accepts that consequence?

My son will gladly loose his video game when he gets caught doing something he knows is wrong.

He knows taking away the video game did not hurt him.

That is a very dangerous child in that he calculates the consequence and does the wrong thing anyway.

The bigger he gets the worse the things are going to get that he does.

What do you do with a child like that?

They easy solution to that is the you escalate the punishment until the "cost" is not worth the offense. In other words, if taking away his video game for a weekend is worth it to him....then maybe losing the video game for a month. Or maybe you change the punishment, he gets grounded for two weeks. When they get bigger....they lose driving privileges.

There are much more effective means to discipline a child than hitting them.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I was a kid like that. When I was little my dad was trying his approach in parenting that would eventually give in completely to my mothers, but only after it was proven to be a failure. His approach was basically that I was to follow his command and that whatever objection I had was not important. One of his punishments that he would issue was the idea that you should take away your kids possessions and enjoyments when they act up. I responded very badly to this approach and saw it as insult that deserved to be challenged head on. I decided that I didn't care if he wanted to ground me from playing video games nor did I care if he wanted to bar me from really anything he could muster. It didn't matter to me anymore. There was plenty of time when I had nothing except my bed and even then in time when he found out I would do nothing but lay in bed he banned me from even going in my room until bedtime. His goal was to force me to do what he wanted, and I am not the kind of person that accepts that kind of treatment, so I just flat out refused to do anything at all. In time as I said, he dropped it and at that point my behavior improved.

Thank youfor making my point for me.

The only thing that works with a kid like that is pain.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I was, and still am, that child.

First, that child does not respect you, at least not as much as you think. I'm sure that child has all kinds of warm mushy feelings for you and all, but when it comes down to obaying your word, respect for you isn't there to stop him or even make him feel sorry afterwards.

Second, your punishments have to make the risk greater than the reward.

No punishment will work if he doesn't respect you. He'll just circumvent the punishment, and after a point he won't even try to hide that he went around you.

That's when you'll go insane.

Here is the problem. We live in Mexico. I am trying to save his life for when he gets older.

He needs to listen to what we say when we say it but he doesn't get that.

I think the only thing I can do with him at this point is start to spank him. I have never done it, his mother does a little, but I think that is the only thing he will respond to, like he is asking for it.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

My step mother tried the whole "I'll take your things away" aproach.

There was a ghost in the house...everytime she took something of mine away, something of hers vanished.

Haha. I wasn't the kind of kid that would steal stuff or was revengeful. I wasn't actually that bad at all really. My approach was just to ignore the punishment and act like it wasn't bothering me, but in reality, it was bothering me plenty. It was pretty transparent of course, but I was a kid, so I didn't consider appearances, just how I was going to nullify the punishment.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

I rarely raise my voice to children. On the rare occasions I do, it is the deep-throated 'voice of command' issuing a terse ultimatum, and rarely ever is that disregarded.... because they know that's their last warning before....




Things were a lot easier with my niece. I made it a point to not use bad language around her for years but she raoyally pissed me off one day and I swore at her, and she was shocked into silence. It really made an impression on her and she never did anything like that again.

My son is different.

He really doesn't care about the consequences so he does what he wants.

For example his mother tells me he is so sweet and tender with small animals.

Well yesterday a neighbor dog was inside my front porch, where he left the gate open, and to get him out he kicked the dog hard inthe rear.

I saw that and brought him in.

He really believes it is better to say sorry afterwards that ask permission before.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Thank youfor making my point for me.

The only thing that works with a kid like that is pain.

Actually, for me, my mothers approach worked that relied on understanding and choice. She did not believe in punishments outside of time out and even then she would not abandon her desire to reach the child.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

They easy solution to that is the you escalate the punishment until the "cost" is not worth the offense. In other words, if taking away his video game for a weekend is worth it to him....then maybe losing the video game for a month. Or maybe you change the punishment, he gets grounded for two weeks. When they get bigger....they lose driving privileges.

There are much more effective means to discipline a child than hitting them.

That is like rolling the dice and hoping it will work.

Since I live in Mexico, I don't want him growing up to be a good Mexican, which means having no respect for authority at all.

You are right that the punishment should be enhanced, however doing the same thing, albeit for a longer time, is doing the same thing.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Well yesterday a neighbor dog was inside my front porch, where he left the gate open, and to get him out he kicked the dog hard inthe rear.

Umm...it seems pretty obvious he didn't know how to deal with the dog when it refused to move. How was his action really different from someone that spanks their kid when they refuse to obey the rules? All he did was use pain to get the dog to move. Is that not what you are promoting be done to children?
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

Actually, for me, my mothers approach worked that relied on understanding and choice. She did not believe in punishments outside of time out and even then she would not abandon her desire to reach the child.

You are saying that taking away your possessions didn't work but standing in a corner for 10 minutes did work?

That is hard to believe.
 
Re: Parents: Punishing Kids

You are saying that taking away your possessions didn't work but standing in a corner for 10 minutes did work?

That is hard to believe.

It goes deeper than that. My problem with the punishments delivered by my father is that they would get under my skin and instead of motivating me to change my behavior they would piss me off and motivate me to defy his rules out of spite. The other issue is that I didn't respect him nor did I like him as a person, so my willingness to listen to him was decreased considerably. When you add in the fact he wouldn't listen to me at any point in time over anything there was really no chance he was going to be able to control me.

Time outs were annoying but my mother respected me and listened to what I had to say. I considered her kind and gentle and I loved everything about her. She had my full attention because she earned it and she was very willing to give me the time of day I deserved and accept my opinions for what they were instead of ignoring me and the reasons I did something. The time out wasn't a leading factor really at all.
 
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