View Poll Results: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

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  • Yes

    29 38.16%
  • No

    43 56.58%
  • Other

    4 5.26%
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Thread: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

  1. #71
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    Money can be speech, that's the point on top of which there is an important distinction between direct contributions which the government can absolutely regulate and independent expenditures which they really can't. 18 USC 201 remains in force and will not be found to violate the I Amendment. Even if you were to make the claim that it violated the I Amendment, you'd still have a compelling interest that was narrowly tailored, notwithstanding when the term money isn't speech is bantered about, its not about giving it to politicians, its about trying to get entities, like Citizens United NOT to spend money on activities that enable them to engage in speech; the attempt to do so WILL absolutely trigger, and rightly so, I Amendment scrutiny.
    If Money IS speach .... i.e. you can GIVE Money all you want or use Your Money in any way you want.

    We arn't talking about Money being an Enhancement to speach or something like that, we are saying Money = Speach.

    what is the argument against Direct contributions?

    I mean can the government regulate me talking to my representative? As opposed to just talking on a soap Box? No, if Money is speach then how can they regulate giving Money to politicians?

    Money is speech is simply the reverse of the mantra. Taking both statements as statements of doctrine leads to absolutist absurdities like your post suggests.
    So do you think Money is speach?

  2. #72
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    A post written on a computer or other internet connected device that you spent money on. NY Times spends hundreds of millions putting out its material.
    Persuasion is a science. And critical thinking doesn't override many of its techniques.

    Until this society realizes this, money isn't buying speech. Its buying manipulation.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  3. #73
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    So do you think Money is speach?
    When its used to enable speech, yes, and the government's attempt to make an end run around the I Amendment, ie. when they exhibit a censorial motive, rightfully triggers I Amendment scrutiny.

  4. #74
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    When its used to enable speech, yes, and the government's attempt to make an end run around the I Amendment, ie. when they exhibit a censorial motive, rightfully triggers I Amendment scrutiny.
    Ok, SO, at what point is spending Money something that can enable Speech and at what time is it not?

    So for example, I buy a microphone in order to give a speach, the purchase of a microphone isn't speach, but it is used for speach.

    If it's the purchase itself that is speach, then how can you argue that it's wrong to just give Money to a politician and say "I want you to vote this way" ... if the use of Money is speach then how can you argue against that?

  5. #75
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    If all we had was money being spent the NY Times and Media Matters this wouldn't even be an issue.

  6. #76
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Spending money for a internet connection on or paying for a paper=speech?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Spending money is an economic transaction. The act of communicating a message is speaking. You have the right to communicate a message. Buying something is not communicating a message, and regardless of what method you choose to use to communicate it, you're still communicating it. Even if certain methods are unavailable to you (like they are to every last one of us), other methods are available. Spending money is a wholly different thing than speaking.

    In a nutshell, NO!
    You two seem to want to play word games. Well let's take a look at the Amendment in question.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Boy that covers a lot, did you notices the word "press"? We all know that no press will run without money, and in these times freedom of speech or the press usually requires money, so the answer is yes, SO TAKING THINGS IN THE CONTEXT PROBABLY UNDERSTOOD BY THE OTHER MEMBERS HERE.............YOU ARE BOTH WRONG. Money is part of the ability to express political ideas or opinion, which is what we're talking about.

    Going down to the 7-11 and buying a Slurpee is not the spending we're talking about Pasch, and I think you know it. We're not talking about a financial transaction, we're talking about the ability or access to the ability to express our opinions.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #77
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    'free' doesn't mean without cost to you, it means free from government restraint. You're conflating the two different senses of the word.
    I take it in every sense. Nothing in the Constitution gives even an inkling that you should have to pay for the privilege.

  8. #78
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    We know what the USSC says. But do you believe spending money is speech?
    Yes, I do but I also think a vulnerability in our system of electing government officials is outcomes can be unduly influenced when interests with huge amounts of money have the ability to speak louder, to more people and thus have greater influence in determining election outcomes than people with less money. IMHO:

    - This is the reason we have campaign finance laws.
    - The superpac model is a campaign finance law loophole that would otherwise addresses this imbalance
    - It also gives undue influence to foreign nationals in American elections
    - It is a problem that our founding fathers did not anticipate
    - Many of the people who hold strong opinions on this are throwing principle out the window and only hold their opinions because it presently helps their side
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

  9. #79
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    I take it in every sense. Nothing in the Constitution gives even an inkling that you should have to pay for the privilege.
    What????????
    You're really stretching to make a case for your side with that post. just sayin'....

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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Spending money is an economic transaction. The act of communicating a message is speaking. You have the right to communicate a message. Buying something is not communicating a message, and regardless of what method you choose to use to communicate it, you're still communicating it. Even if certain methods are unavailable to you (like they are to every last one of us), other methods are available. Spending money is a wholly different thing than speaking.

    In a nutshell, NO!
    All that is true except that there is an obvious and trackable trail of what you bought...and that does add up to information...a message.

    And we already know that that message is used....one example is a grocery shopping card. You get discounts and they get info on what you purchase and make decisions based on those....but they include more than just the item and $$...they include your demographic info and address, etc.

    BTW this is just a generic post that could have gone to anyone in the thread but I liked your response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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