View Poll Results: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

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  • Yes

    29 38.16%
  • No

    43 56.58%
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    4 5.26%
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Thread: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

  1. #61
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    THey CAN however, regulate Commerce.
    Yes, they can. They can regulate commerce on a 'rational basis' but when that regulation of commerce is such that it has a differential impact on speech, then they don't get to, they don't get to make an end run around the I Amendment by 'rationally regulating' commerce and when the differential treatment is shown, the censorial motive exists and the action will violate the I Amendment.

  2. #62
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    If you want to prevent corruption, prevent corruption, but a private entity spending money on a movie lambasting Hillary Clinton (at the time a seated Senator and candidate for the Democratic nomination), or in the case of Fahrenheit 9/11 lambasting George Bush (obviously then the sitting incumbent President running for re-election) is actually the I Amendment's highest form, there's nothing presumptively corrupt about either activity unless the government itself can PROVE the quid pro quo.
    If I go up to a politician, and say I'll give you a billion dollars if you vote such and such way ....

    how, under Your philosophy that Money is speach, would you say that is wrong?

  3. #63
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    no one is infringing on their ability to Express ideas
    If money isn't speech and you're not going to stop Citizens United from spending the money to make the movie that was the whole point of the case, then nobody cares, its just a semantic drivel, but if money isn't speech then I'd suggest your motive is to prevent somebody from spending money, in this case, to prevent them from making the very movie that you claim doesn't infringe on their ability to express ideas, in this case the idea, in Citizen United's opinion, that Hillary Clinton sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    No, no one is infringing on their ability to Express ideas, they are infringing on the ability to purchase politicians ....
    Well, Citizens United was an actual entity, spending actual money to make a movie that criticized a member of the government, who were they buying?

    I don't need the government's permission to criticize them.

  4. #64
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    No. It commodifies speech. Which then obviously means it is no longer free.

  5. #65
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Well then the right to free speach should mean I get free paper ....
    That's not a logical response to what I wrote.

  6. #66
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    No. It commodifies speech. Which then obviously means it is no longer free.
    'free' doesn't mean without cost to you, it means free from government restraint. You're conflating the two different senses of the word.

  7. #67
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by newpublius View Post
    1. If money isn't speech and you're not going to stop Citizens United from spending the money to make the movie that was the whole point of the case, then nobody cares, its just a semantic drivel, but if money isn't speech then I'd suggest your motive is to prevent somebody from spending money, in this case, to prevent them from making the very movie that you claim doesn't infringe on their ability to express ideas, in this case the idea, in Citizen United's opinion, that Hillary Clinton sucks.

    Well, Citizens United was an actual entity, spending actual money to make a movie that criticized a member of the government, who were they buying?

    I don't need the government's permission to criticize them.
    1. I'm not preventing anyone from spending Money, here's the question, the specific Court case isn't what I'm talking about here, its' the principle of Money=speach .... it clearly isn't, Money is a medium of Exchange.

    But the Logic if claiming Money is speach would mean that you CANNOT oppose corruption, or any spending, since all if it would be speach, or any use of Money, what essencially you're left With is plutocracy (which is basically what rightwingers wanted all along)

  8. #68
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    If I go up to a politician, and say I'll give you a billion dollars if you vote such and such way ....

    how, under Your philosophy that Money is speach, would you say that is wrong?
    Money can be speech, that's the point on top of which there is an important distinction between direct contributions which the government can absolutely regulate and independent expenditures which they really can't. 18 USC 201 remains in force and will not be found to violate the I Amendment. Even if you were to make the claim that it violated the I Amendment, you'd still have a compelling interest that was narrowly tailored, notwithstanding when the term money isn't speech is bantered about, its not about giving it to politicians, its about trying to get entities, like Citizens United NOT to spend money on activities that enable them to engage in speech; the attempt to do so WILL absolutely trigger, and rightly so, I Amendment scrutiny.

  9. #69
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Money is effectively a replacement for town square and soapbox to stand on. Without it you cannot meaningfully express your ideas to a significant number of people. So yes restraining the ability to spend restrains free speech.

    On the other hand given the Internet that may well become a moot point in the future.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  10. #70
    Educator newpublius's Avatar
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    Re: Do You Personally Believe Spending Money is Speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    1. I'm not preventing anyone from spending Money, here's the question, the specific Court case isn't what I'm talking about here, its' the principle of Money=speach .... it clearly isn't, Money is a medium of Exchange.
    Money isn't speech is just a mantra, its not a legally significant phrase, but its a mantra that actually does stand for a proposition which, in conjunction with a specific case, Citizens United, would've prevented an expenditure of money on the movie they made and when the government does that, that expenditure actually IS speech and will trigger I Amendment scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    But the Logic if claiming Money is speach would mean that you CANNOT oppose corruption, or any spending, since all if it would be speach, or any use of Money, what essencially you're left With is plutocracy (which is basically what rightwingers wanted all along)
    Money is speech is simply the reverse of the mantra. Taking both statements as statements of doctrine leads to absolutist absurdities like your post suggests.

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