View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    14 46.67%
  • No

    16 53.33%
Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 120

Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:

    .........
    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) heartily champions the neoconservative view. While virtually every other recognizably Tea Party congressman or senator opposes the Libyan intervention, Rubio believes the world’s top cop should be flashing its Sherriff’s badge more forcefully in Libya—and everywhere else. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat explains:

    “Rubio is the great neoconservative hope, the champion of a foreign policy that boldly goes abroad in search of monsters to destroy… His maiden Senate speech was a paean to national greatness, whose peroration invoked John F. Kennedy and insisted that America remain the ‘watchman on the wall of world freedom.”

    Rubio’s flowery rhetoric is worth noting because neoconservatism has always been sold through the narrative of America’s “greatness” or “exceptionalism.” This is essentially the Republican Party’s version of the old liberal notion promoted by President Woodrow Wilson that it is America’s mission to “make the world safe for democracy.” Douthat describes Rubio as the “great neoconservative hope” because the freshman senator is seen by the neocon intelligentsia as one of the few reliable Tea Party-oriented spokesman willing to still promote this ideology to the GOP base. I say “still” because many Republicans have begun to question the old neocon foreign policy consensus that dominated Bush’s GOP. Douthat puts the neoconservatives’ worries and the Republicans’ shift into context:

    “Among conservatism’s foreign policy elite, Rubio’s worldview commands more support. But in the grass roots, it’s a different story. A recent Pew poll found that the share of conservative Republicans agreeing that the U.S. should ‘pay less attention to problems overseas’ has risen… In the debate over Libya, Tea Party icons like Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin have sounded more like (Rand) Paul than Rubio, and a large group of House Republican backbenchers recently voted for a resolution that would have brought the intervention screeching to a halt.”

    As one of only a handful of Republicans to oppose the Iraq War, Republican Congressman Jimmy Duncan said in 2003: “It is a traditional conservative position not to want the United States to be the policeman of the world.” At the time Duncan’s party strongly disagreed with him.

    But this is because most Republicans didn’t think of the Iraq War as “policing the world” but as a legitimate matter of national defense. We now know that it had absolutely nothing to do with America’s defense and we’re still bogged down needlessly in another nation’s civil war.

    But this has always been the neocon ruse—if neoconservatives can convince others that fighting some war, somewhere is for America’s actual defense, they will always make this argument and stretch any logic necessary to do so. Whether or not it is true is less important than its effectiveness. But their arguments are only a means to an end. Neoconservatives rarely show any reflection—much less regret—for foreign policy mistakes because for them there are no foreign policy mistakes. America’s wars are valid by their own volition. America’s “mission” is its missions. Writes Max Boot: “Why should America take on the thankless task of policing the globe… As long as evil exists, someone will have to protect peaceful people from predators.”

    Needless to say, perpetual war to rid the world of evil is about as far as one can get from traditional conservatism but it was also the mantra of Bush’s Republican Party. Boot now snidely asks the current GOP if they want to be known as the “anti-military, weak-on-defense, pro-dictator party” due to their opposition to the Libyan intervention. This argument might sound strange yet familiar to Republicans—it was exactly what they said about Democrats who opposed the Iraq War. John McCain now calls Republicans who oppose the Libyan War “isolationist.” The Senator’s use of that term is as illogical as it is illustrative—in that his bizarre definition is identical to what most of his fellow Republicans believed just a few short years ago.
    ....
    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?

  2. #2
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,089

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Of course they are. Just because the NeoCon label has become negative because of Iraq, Bush, the crisis, does not change the fact that they are conservatives... fallen conservatives maybe, but never the less conservatives.
    PeteEU

  3. #3
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Define neocon, there is more than one conception as the term has twisted and turned through history. Personally, I prefer the term 'geolib'.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-09-14 at 04:26 PM.

  4. #4
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,635

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Nationalists who wish to secure American dominance abroad (even if to promote a sort of benevolent hegemony through the free market and notions of liberal democracy) are conservative. The American Conservative has had a tendency to promote the notion that paleoconservatism is mostly the only acceptable grouping that can be defined as conservatism.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #5
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Nationalists who wish to secure American dominance abroad (even if to promote a sort of benevolent hegemony through the free market and notions of liberal democracy) are conservative. The American Conservative has had a tendency to promote the notion that paleoconservatism is mostly the only acceptable grouping that can be defined as conservatism.
    I don't accept nationalism as an aspect of neocon, as I interpret it to mean geolib and a fundamental internationalism conflicts with nationalism; patriotism (subjective) perhaps. Of course, I don't consider Bush2 a neocon domestically (maybe from an international perspective).

    I would be willing, nonetheless, to engage in the thread topic under a definition of neocon specified by the OP poster or another. You see I need that definition to establish a meaningful parameter.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-09-14 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,635

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Define neocon, there is more than one conception as the term has twisted and turned through history. Personally, I prefer the term 'geolib'.
    I prefer working in their realm. In the late 1990s, many of the neoconservatives people now recognize as being neoconservative actually sought to differentiate themselves from both the domestic policy neoconservatism and the foreign policy neoconservatives since the 1960s. In the post-Cold War world, the goal was to take advantage of the unipolar moment in global affairs by going after rogue states that both oppose American values (liberal democracy) and harm the national interest. They took it upon themselves to define themselves in relation to what they thought was a key feature of the Reagan administration's foreign policy, but redefined for the new age. Hence, "Neo-Reaganite" was born. The term did not stick, because many neoconservatives themselves were Neo-Reaganites, were actually related to neoconservatives, or were seen as a new or odd amalgam in the conservative world. Neoconservative thus had yet another general mold to add to its already confusing history.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  7. #7
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I prefer working in their realm. In the late 1990s, many of the neoconservatives people now recognize as being neoconservative actually sought to differentiate themselves from both the domestic policy neoconservatism and the foreign policy neoconservatives since the 1960s. In the post-Cold War world, the goal was to take advantage of the unipolar moment in global affairs by going after rogue states that both oppose American values (liberal democracy) and harm the national interest. They took it upon themselves to define themselves in relation to what they thought was a key feature of the Reagan administration's foreign policy, but redefined for the new age. Hence, "Neo-Reaganite" was born. The term did not stick, because many neoconservatives themselves were Neo-Reaganites, were actually related to neoconservatives, or were seen as a new or odd amalgam in the conservative world. Neoconservative thus had yet another general mold to add to its already confusing history.
    How about a definition in a sentence or two.

    If I were to set the definition, it would be: A hawk libertarian. (See edits to my post you quoted)

  8. #8
    Sage
    WCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    The Lone Star State.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    22,138

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Of course they are. Just because the NeoCon label has become negative because of Iraq, Bush, the crisis, does not change the fact that they are conservatives... fallen conservatives maybe, but never the less conservatives.
    Compassionate Conservatives.

    They were so not conservative, they had to make up a new name.

    The rapid expansion of government tipped their hand.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  9. #9
    Sage
    Gimmesometruth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    US Southwest
    Last Seen
    09-13-17 @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,405

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't accept nationalism as an aspect of neocon, as I interpret it to mean geolib and a fundamental internationalism conflicts with nationalism; patriotism (subjective) perhaps. Of course, I don't consider Bush2 a neocon domestically (maybe from an international perspective).

    I would be willing, nonetheless, to engage in the thread topic under a definition of neocon specified by the OP poster or another. You see I need that definition to establish a meaningful parameter.
    Instead of insisting others provide you with the definition (which you can then deny infinitely), go ahead and find a definition you agree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    If you wanna know why Trumpsters are ignoring you its for the same reason you ignored the KKKs complaints about Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    When it comes down to it, all facts are cherry picked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  10. #10
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,635

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    How about a definition in a sentence or two.

    If I were to set the definition, it would be: A hawk libertarian.
    A definition of these foreign policy neoconservatives in the late 90's? A rough conceptualization:

    Neo-Reganite Conservative (or Neo-Reaganite Neoconservative): A conservative primarily concerned with maintaining American hegemony with free markets while simultaneously promoting liberal democratic values in rogue states, through force if necessary to secure the national interest.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •