View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

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  • Yes

    14 46.67%
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    16 53.33%
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Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #81
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    The right has the tendency to attribute everything bad in their wing of thinking to the left and pretend like it's all pretty rainbows and unicorns on their end. Neoconservatism, whether the new Tea Party/Ron Paul types want to it admit it or not, is a conservative philosophy. In fact, it's actually hyper-conservative. Neocon policies are conservatism taken to the extreme.

    Claiming that neoconservatism is a "liberal" philosophy is the epitome of stupid. It's completely ignorant of liberalism, both classical and modern. But, of course, anything that does not fit in the tiny little purist box of the new far-right is "RINO", "Liberal", and "Leftist."
    I perceive Neo-Cons as Fascists with delusions of grandeur and dreams of world domination. They're evil, dangerous, and represent the antithesis of the values of basic Americans.

  2. #82
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:



    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
    It use to be that way. The idea of the League of Nations and the United Nations along with being the policeman of the world and to right the wrongs were definitely liberal ideas. Wilson, FDR, Truman etc. The basic tenets of a traditional conservative are:
    1. Avoiding foreign entanglements or one could say isolationism.
    2. Fiscal Responsibility, balancing the budget every year with no deficits.
    3. Keeping government out of a citizens personal business and lives, in other words small government.

    The neoconservatives in my view have thrown the original tenets of traditional conservatism out the window. My political views fall in line more with traditional conservatism than the neoconservatism.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  3. #83
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    It use to be that way. The idea of the League of Nations and the United Nations along with being the policeman of the world and to right the wrongs were definitely liberal ideas. Wilson, FDR, Truman etc. The basic tenets of a traditional conservative are:
    1. Avoiding foreign entanglements or one could say isolationism.
    2. Fiscal Responsibility, balancing the budget every year with no deficits.
    3. Keeping government out of a citizens personal business and lives, in other words small government.

    The neoconservatives in my view have thrown the original tenets of traditional conservatism out the window. My political views fall in line more with traditional conservatism than the neoconservatism.
    Exactly. The neo-cons are acting as liberals do, not as conservatives do. They're just highly religious liberals, they act the same way but for different reasons.

    I would say, just to clarify #1, that it isn't isolationism, it's avoiding UNNECESSARY foreign entanglements. Basically, it's minding your own business unless directly asked to intervene, or in which our national interests are directly challenged. That's kind of gone out the window of late.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #84
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Exactly. The neo-cons are acting as liberals do, not as conservatives do. They're just highly religious liberals, they act the same way but for different reasons.

    I would say, just to clarify #1, that it isn't isolationism, it's avoiding UNNECESSARY foreign entanglements. Basically, it's minding your own business unless directly asked to intervene, or in which our national interests are directly challenged. That's kind of gone out the window of late.
    I agree. I thought a bit when I typed isolationism. But you are correct. It is avoiding unnecessary foreign entanglements, but also wars. In a way the neoconservative is a statist. They want government to enforce their religious views and values whereas a liberal wants government to enforce their social views and values upon the people. So both are statist I want and a tradition conservative would want government to stay out of both.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  5. #85
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The problem is that the neocon notion of pre-emption involves too much radical change in the world for it to fall under traditional conservatism which seeks to minimize radical change.
    Not necessarily. What if intervention is the only way to prevent something worse?

    Apologies in advance for nitpicking.
    Strictly speaking, Conservatism doesn't seek to prevent radical change. While Conservatism can be considered the original counterrevolutionary movement, radical changes are in fact quite acceptable in Conservatism, but should be based on common law (i.e. respected custom) in order to provide a stable foundation for said change. U.S. style revolutions makes for healthier societies than what the world got with Napoleon/Nazi Germany/the Soviet Bloc/various Third World countries. However, to a Conservative, it is evident that the more radical changes are, the more difficult they become to guide in the proper direction, wherefore change should be undertaken with due consideration if at all possible. But only if possible.
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  6. #86
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:



    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye?
    Are the neocons really conservatives?


    What real conservatives would ever advocate that the USA attack Iraq which was no threat to the USA?

  7. #87
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    1. Avoiding foreign entanglements or one could say isolationism.
    2. Fiscal Responsibility, balancing the budget every year with no deficits.
    3. Keeping government out of a citizens personal business and lives, in other words small government.
    Problem is that this has never really existed in the whole history of the US. One or more have been broken at a given time.
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    It is strange how words get morphed around and change meanings.
    In 1970 a history professor wrote on the board something like 600,000 to 0. Every Democrat President of the 20th century (up to that point obviously) got the US involved in war that cost 600,000 lives while none of the Republicans got us into war. Conservatives tend to like to conserve things, not destroy things in war.

    Neo-con originally referred to liberals who wanted more military impact in world affairs. Anyone who supported the Iraq war because they believed that there was WMD is a neo-con, wanting to militarily intervene into another country's affairs. Of course, there was a number of reason for the Iraq war, 23 reasons were listed in the Congressional Authorization. Many of those were valid reasons for intervention-Saddam was killing his own people with chemical weapons, destroying the environment, invading other countries, etc.

    But it was the liberals who seem to hold that neo-con value-i.e. that it is OK to invade another country pre-emptively if they are a threat. When the threat turned out to be false and there was no WMD, they turned against the war. But clearly by so doing they, the liberals, signaled their belief in a neo-con principle.

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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    No doubt about it they are. There are several types of people on the right who embarrass each other since they tend to believe their is only one true rightist ideology and it is theirs so they bicker and fight among themselves like a family.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Problem is that this has never really existed in the whole history of the US. One or more have been broken at a given time.
    It is said the last true traditional conservative president was Calvin Coolidge. That is probably true.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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