View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    14 46.67%
  • No

    16 53.33%
Page 8 of 12 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 120

Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #71
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ask the NSA
    Last Seen
    07-24-16 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    5,849
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you here. Although a strong defense has been associated with the Goldwater strain of conservatism, I think this business of running around the globe, overthrowing regimes and ESPECIALLY this attempt to change whole cultures, is something that is radical and is the antithesis of the traditional conservative position. Traditional conservatives tend to be of the view that change should be slow which is a result of their belief that traditions have formed over time for a good reason. As such they tend to favor the preservation of the status quo. I would argue that the attempt to radically alter the nature of societies and cultures that have been that way for hundreds of years is in no way conservative, at least not in the traditional sense, and is rather born of a rather naive type of idealism that falsely believes that the world can be transformed, to borrow your words, into a beautiful world of unicorns and rainbows, when in fact the cold reality is that people have various natures, some which are just not suited to Western values.
    Words change meaning. Conservatism, traditionally speaking, was quite isolationist. I acknowledge that. Almost Tigger style isolationism. Closed borders, no overseas intervention, limited trade, self-sufficiency. However that's not what conservatism is anymore. Conservatism has taken it's nationalistic principles and applied them in a more militant approach. Neoconservatism.

    Liberalism has changed meaning too. As has libertarianism. Liberalism was the libertarian of today, and libertarianism actually used to be left-wing (socialist/communist) anarchism. We can sit around and argue about what words used to be mean...but that's not what they mean now. It sucks that people feel the need to constantly change definitions, I get that, but it's what has happened.

  2. #72
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Words change meaning. Conservatism, traditionally speaking, was quite isolationist. I acknowledge that. Almost Tigger style isolationism. Closed borders, no overseas intervention, limited trade, self-sufficiency. However that's not what conservatism is anymore. Conservatism has taken it's nationalistic principles and applied them in a more militant approach. Neoconservatism.

    Liberalism has changed meaning too. As has libertarianism. Liberalism was the libertarian of today, and libertarianism actually used to be left-wing (socialist/communist) anarchism. We can sit around and argue about what words used to be mean...but that's not what they mean now. It sucks that people feel the need to constantly change definitions, I get that, but it's what has happened.
    I would argue that when words change their meaning so much that their original intent is lost, the words themselves become meaningless because the interpretation of such words becomes difficult for someone who has a probing mind. In particular, I think your position that militant nationalism is somehow conservative, renders the term meaningless because, in that case, it is so far from it's original meaning, that conservatism, as a concept becomes difficult to interpret in any precise sense. It's something like trying to say that there is really no difference in a dog and a cat, and that now a dog, for all practical purposes can be said to be a cat.

  3. #73
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ask the NSA
    Last Seen
    07-24-16 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    5,849
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I would argue that when words change their meaning so much that their original intent is lost, the words themselves become meaningless because the interpretation of such words becomes difficult for someone who has a probing mind. In particular, I think your position that militant nationalism is somehow conservative, renders the term meaningless because, in that case, it is so far from it's original meaning, that conservatism, as a concept becomes difficult to interpret in any precise sense. It's something like trying to say that there is really no difference in a dog and a cat, and that now a dog, for all practical purposes can be said to be a cat.
    US politics is ****ed up. What can I say? Legitimate political philosophies are used as buzzwords rather than what they were originally intended to be.

    Words like socialist, communist, and fascist really have no meaning anymore. Conservatism and liberalism are going down that road as well.

  4. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    US politics is ****ed up. What can I say? Legitimate political philosophies are used as buzzwords rather than what they were originally intended to be.

    Words like socialist, communist, and fascist really have no meaning anymore. Conservatism and liberalism are going down that road as well.
    You are so right. The problem is that people toss about terms like liberal and conservative to scare people, rather than to have a serious discussion of the issue at hand. But that's a lot easier than trying to convince people on an intellectual level, because quite a few people don't want to do the work of serious thinking. But that is sadly the way it is.

  5. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    09-11-17 @ 03:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,386

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    They are staggeringly ignorant and, imo, do more harm to America then ISIS could ever dream of.

    Are they cons?

    Don't know.

    But I guarantee you there are Neocons in the Obama White House.

  6. #76
    User snodog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 05:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    56

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:
    Yeah those darn left wing hippies starting all the wars.
    Under Capitalism man exploits man; under Communism it's vice versa. -John Kenneth Galbraith
    I have always considered it as treason against the great republic of human nature, to make any man's virtues the means of deceiving him. -Samuel Johnson

  7. #77
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 02:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,107

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    It strikes me that you would have to divorce the term "conservative" from its' post-war meaning in order to declare that Neocons do not fall under it. A forward-leaning defense posture that recognizes that ultimately our values and our interests are intertwined has been a pretty solid conservative position.

  8. #78
    Advisor HK.227's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    321

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:
    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
    Your are attempting to establish the credentials of conservatism on the basis of interventionism.
    There is no real Conservative dogma on interventionism, but history shows us that is was accepted when deemed appropriate. However, people -- even fellow conservatives -- are bound to disagree on when it is appropriate.
    It is such a loose definition, that the quote is of little to no value for the purpose of this thread. You might as well ask if someone is a real conservative if their favorite color is pink.
    Conservatism doesn't proscribe a favorite color, nor a statist stance on interventionism.

    If you want to determine whether neo-conservatives are real conservatives, you have to compare original conservative philosophy with neo-conservatism, before being able to do so.
    What is neo-conservative thinking on the basis of rights? How is this reflected in economical matters? Education? The evolution of society? The practice of law? Business? War?

    Also, there is no such thing as "very" conservative or "ultra" conservative. You either think the founding fathers of Conservatism had the right idea, or you don't.
    Ok, that does it! I waste Professor Plum with the lead pipe.
    Oh yeah? Well say hello to my little friend, Colonel Mustard! Candlestick to the face!
    This is the last time I'm playing Clue with you two...

  9. #79
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Your are attempting to establish the credentials of conservatism on the basis of interventionism.
    The problem is that the neocon notion of pre-emption involves too much radical change in the world for it to fall under traditional conservatism which seeks to minimize radical change.

  10. #80
    Sage
    Sherman123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Northeast US
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 11:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,774

    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:



    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
    We are the natural development of Jeffersons (among so many others) conception of an Empire of Liberty. Death to tyrants, power to the people.

Page 8 of 12 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •