View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

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  • Yes

    14 46.67%
  • No

    16 53.33%
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Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    As it relates to foreign policy, believes that free markets mixed with the spread of a western (and specifically american) stylized brand of democracy to chaotic/antagonistic states is tantamount to the security of the United States.
    I could be corrected on this, but in my view, this idea of spreading democratic values is not something that I associate with traditional conservatism. Rather traditional conservatives tend to lean towards traditional values as stabilizing, rather than the chaotic nature of democracy.

  2. #62
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    What a surprise to see most of the comments come from died-in-the-wool socialists...considering it's about conservatives I wonder if they can know what they're talking about.

    The problem with this piece is very simple. it's wrong. Dead wrong.

    It uses the views of ONE self-described neo-con as the base of whether necons are really conservative?

    I mean really, a base of one?


    Since the phrase was coined in the late 70's, it has taken on confusing meanings, usually driven by people who are NOT neocon to the point it has become meaningless to me.....

    When the Amerikcan left responds to my criticisms of Obama by accusing me of being a "Necon" in one sentence, and "Teabagger" in the next, then the word should lose all concept of even having a meaning.

    When someone can document that Mr. Rubio speaks for a majority of "neocons" then I will give credence to what I see as another attempt to distort the term
    To be honest with you, the labels of liberal and conservative have become very confusing, and are typically tossed about for political advantage, rather than to give a strict intellectual analysis of a position.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting piece from the American Conservative:

    What’s a Neoconservative? | The American Conservative

    According to this author, the neoconservative view of America policing the world to rid it of evil is not really traditional conservative value, but rather a liberal one:



    So, to quote a message board MC, what say ye? Are the neocons really conservatives?
    The right has the tendency to attribute everything bad in their wing of thinking to the left and pretend like it's all pretty rainbows and unicorns on their end. Neoconservatism, whether the new Tea Party/Ron Paul types want to it admit it or not, is a conservative philosophy. In fact, it's actually hyper-conservative. Neocon policies are conservatism taken to the extreme.

    Claiming that neoconservatism is a "liberal" philosophy is the epitome of stupid. It's completely ignorant of liberalism, both classical and modern. But, of course, anything that does not fit in the tiny little purist box of the new far-right is "RINO", "Liberal", and "Leftist."

  4. #64
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The thing that differentiates the neocons, with regards to policing is that they take it to an extreme level, e.g. the doctrine of pre-emption, which is a very dangerous way of formulating foreign policy as it's paranoid approach which tends to create new threats and increase the level of threat of existing ones.
    Exactly!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #65
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Neocons are not conservative in terms of foreign policy since they are in the business of trying to liberalize illiberal people. Multiculturalists are not liberal because they are in the business of preserving illiberal values.

    Whereas one is attached to the right and the other the left, in many ways they represent the opposite of what we have come to expect in terms of mission.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  6. #66
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    It's completely ignorant of liberalism, both classical and modern.
    I'm curious how you would defend that statement, given you considered neoconservatism "hyper" conservative.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 09-09-14 at 08:49 PM.
    A message to both the Left and the Right. Ari Ne'eman-"People with disabilities deserve better than to be used as props in the country’s ongoing — and so far stalemated — arguments over gun control." https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-obama-liberty

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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post

    Fiddy's really the best to speak to this, though I think he generally (rightly so) focused primarily on the foreign policy views of Neo-Conservatives.
    Yeah, mostly because that was what The American Conservative was doing by critiquing Max Boot. Otherwise, I would be going into other aspects of it.
    A message to both the Left and the Right. Ari Ne'eman-"People with disabilities deserve better than to be used as props in the country’s ongoing — and so far stalemated — arguments over gun control." https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-obama-liberty

  8. #68
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    The right has the tendency to attribute everything bad in their wing of thinking to the left and pretend like it's all pretty rainbows and unicorns on their end. Neoconservatism, whether the new Tea Party/Ron Paul types want to it admit it or not, is a conservative philosophy. In fact, it's actually hyper-conservative. Neocon policies are conservatism taken to the extreme.

    Claiming that neoconservatism is a "liberal" philosophy is the epitome of stupid. It's completely ignorant of liberalism, both classical and modern. But, of course, anything that does not fit in the tiny little purist box of the new far-right is "RINO", "Liberal", and "Leftist."
    I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you here. Although a strong defense has been associated with the Goldwater strain of conservatism, I think this business of running around the globe, overthrowing regimes and ESPECIALLY this attempt to change whole cultures, is something that is radical and is the antithesis of the traditional conservative position. Traditional conservatives tend to be of the view that change should be slow, which is a result of their belief that traditions have formed over time for a good reason. As such they tend to favor the preservation of the status quo. I would argue that the attempt to radically alter the nature of societies and cultures that have been that way for hundreds of years is in no way conservative, at least not in the traditional sense, and is rather born of a rather naive type of idealism that falsely believes that the world can be transformed, to borrow your words, into a beautiful world of unicorns and rainbows, when in fact the cold reality is that people have various natures, some which are just not suited to Western values.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 09-09-14 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Neocons are not conservative in terms of foreign policy since they are in the business of trying to liberalize illiberal people.
    I agree with you here, and that is pretty much the essence of what I put forward to Telekat.

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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    I'll be honest with you, I really don't have too much of a problem with conservative ideology, intellectually speaking. My problem mostly centers around how conservative ideology has manifest itself, in practical terms, in modern society. In particular, I think it is sad that the Republican party has allowed the principles of conservatism to be associated with racism, religious fanaticism, and the outright greed of the wealthy. How can you expect that type of stuff to be appealing to people who want to live their lives freely?

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