View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

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  • Yes

    14 46.67%
  • No

    16 53.33%
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Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #101
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    We are the natural development of Jeffersons (among so many others) conception of an Empire of Liberty. Death to tyrants, power to the people.
    Of Jeffersons? Do know his position on war?

    Conservatives or for that matter Neoconservatives have damn near nothing in common with Jefferson.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-12-14 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #102
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    I'm not sure what "conservative" means anymore, so it's tough to compare.

    Cons, neocons, and liberals all believe in big government - it's just a matter of what each says the FedGov should be doing, and who gets paid off - as opposed to ever asking the question, "... where does the FedGov have the authority to do the vast majority of what it is currently doing?"

    No Democrat/liberal cares about the Constitution or the rule of law - that is obvious; as far as I can tell, neocons are with 'em in that regard; some "conservatives" on the other hand do give lip service to republican rule, i.e. the rule of law; but, for the most part, the Republican Party is no more republican than the Democratic Party.

    So where does that leave those of us who desire to live in a free society, and to live our lives as free men?? The answer is - completely screwed.

  3. #103
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That's a difficult thing to have me put out quickly and the list would be long. I'm only going to throw out a dozen or so names. But many of the original or 2nd generation neoconservatives are still alive and well. These names include persons that are either domestic policy, intellectual/academic neoconservatives, or foreign policy neoconservatives. No single group has to traverse into the other. Here's some.

    Nathan Glazer
    Michael Novak
    Norman Podhoretz
    John Podhoretz
    Gertrude Himmelfarb
    Midge Decter
    Ben Wattenberg
    Harry Jaffa
    Harvey Mansfield
    Irwin Stelzer
    Paul Wolfowitz
    William Kristol
    Richard Perle
    Francis Fukuyama (although he later disavowed them, I read closely, and I didn't get the feeling he rejected it so much as asked for a better neoconservatism)
    Robert Kagan
    Richard Pipes
    Daniel Pipes

    [...]

    Would not include: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Nitze...
    Why not Cheney?

  4. #104
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    Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Why not Cheney?
    He doesn't fit the profile for either the original domestic policy neocons nor the early Scoop Jackson neocons. On top of that he doesn't have the concerns for democracy and human rights as a foreign policy plank to fit with the Neo-Reaganites.
    He makes a long-time ally of the neoconservatives, but that's not exactly the same thing.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #105
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    We are the natural development of Jeffersons (among so many others) conception of an Empire of Liberty. Death to tyrants, power to the people.
    More like power to big banks and large corporations.

  6. #106
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    It use to be that way. The idea of the League of Nations and the United Nations along with being the policeman of the world and to right the wrongs were definitely liberal ideas. Wilson, FDR, Truman etc. The basic tenets of a traditional conservative are:
    1. Avoiding foreign entanglements or one could say isolationism.
    2. Fiscal Responsibility, balancing the budget every year with no deficits.
    3. Keeping government out of a citizens personal business and lives, in other words small government.

    The neoconservatives in my view have thrown the original tenets of traditional conservatism out the window. My political views fall in line more with traditional conservatism than the neoconservatism.
    I would like to add that traditional conservatism places an emphasis on slow gradual change, rather than radical change.

  7. #107
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Not necessarily. What if intervention is the only way to prevent something worse?
    The problem with the neocon notion of preemption is that the assessment of a threat, a priori, is highly speculative in nature and therefore prone to error. As a result it can lead to unnecessary change, which is something that is quite hostile to the traditional conservative position.

    Quote Originally Posted by HK.227 View Post
    Strictly speaking, Conservatism doesn't seek to prevent radical change. While Conservatism can be considered the original counterrevolutionary movement, radical changes are in fact quite acceptable in Conservatism, but should be based on common law (i.e. respected custom) in order to provide a stable foundation for said change. U.S. style revolutions makes for healthier societies than what the world got with Napoleon/Nazi Germany/the Soviet Bloc/various Third World countries. However, to a Conservative, it is evident that the more radical changes are, the more difficult they become to guide in the proper direction, wherefore change should be undertaken with due consideration if at all possible. But only if possible.
    I disagree with you in the strongest terms that radical change is something that is acceptable in traditional conservatism, because in fact radical change is something that people like Edmund Burke were hostile to. Burke, while recognizing the need for change, felt that such change should be slow and incremental, rather than radical and abrupt. This is a result of the view that the traditions and hierarchical structures structures that exist in society have evolved over time and are in their current state for good reason. Because these structures have withstood the test of time, they are more likely to provide stability than those put in place by radical change. As such, radical change is shunned in favor of the preservation, conservation if you will, of the status quo. Hence the term conservative. The problem with preemption is that it naturally begs the question of the necessity of regime change, which in turn makes radical change more likely to occur. Therefore preemption, because of it's inherent nature to promote radical change, stands in clear opposition to the core principle of traditional conservatism.

  8. #108
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Isolationism is used as a dirty word. Even though, no strict constitutionalist or libertarian type, or classical liberal for that matter, have any interest in isolationism. There are a host of ways the US can and should engage in world affairs. It's the intrigue and covert (which by definition have little or no oversight) that cause so many heartburn. Since when would avoiding 'entanglements' be a negative. And then of course avoiding pre-emptive, and otherwise, wars of choice must be a positive position, and wars like our exploitive banana wars in Latin America are the type of thing that those labeled as isolationists wish to avoid. Any resource wars, for that matter. Like the one Chuck Hagel was speaking of here,

    People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America's national interest. What the hell do you think they're talking about? We're not there for figs.

    Chuck Hagel 2007
    We have the resources right here to become energy self sufficient in 10 years if we had the political will to become so. That would mean we could let the middle east implode on itself and as far as our national interests, especially security wise it would have little effect. But we rely on its oil and thus it is in our national interest to keep it flowing.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  9. #109
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    What real conservatives would ever advocate that the USA attack Iraq which was no threat to the USA?
    Exactly!

  10. #110
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I would like to add that traditional conservatism places an emphasis on slow gradual change, rather than radical change.
    exactly...
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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