View Poll Results: Are Neocons really conservatives?

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  • Yes

    14 46.67%
  • No

    16 53.33%
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Thread: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

  1. #91
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    It is said the last true traditional conservative president was Calvin Coolidge. That is probably true.
    LOL! A president during prohibition? Seriously? He was part of the administration that put that in place..
    PeteEU

  2. #92
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    How about a definition in a sentence or two.

    If I were to set the definition, it would be: A hawk libertarian. (See edits to my post you quoted)
    I can see that as a fairly functional definition, but many neocons have no problem with governing by religion (see any of Neocon's nutjob posts about wanting porn banned). That's a pretty distant strain of Libertarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by truthatallcost View Post
    Pepe Booth strikes again.

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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL! A president during prohibition? Seriously? He was part of the administration that put that in place..
    Coolidge was the Governor of Massachusetts when the 18th Amendment was ratified and put into effect. Perhaps you are mistaking him with that noted conservative, Woodrow Wilson.

  4. #94
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL! A president during prohibition? Seriously? He was part of the administration that put that in place..
    Seriously, here is a good article to read on liberal and conservative presidents. It might surprise you to find out which presidents the article considers liberal. Of course this is based on traditional meanings of the words.

    Diary: Liberal and Conservative Presidents since Coolidge: What it Means Now | OpEdNews
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Reading through this thread makes me realize how totally useless these labels are. It seems that we all have different views of what all these labels mean. To me we have two different political leanings. One wants to limit liberty to their beliefs through the force of the state, "statists," and others want maximum liberty through minimal government.

    Clearly there are many more of us who want to limit liberty than there are who want to maximize it.
    "If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner."
    H. L. Mencken

  6. #96
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Booth View Post
    I can see that as a fairly functional definition, but many neocons have no problem with governing by religion (see any of Neocon's nutjob posts about wanting porn banned). That's a pretty distant strain of Libertarianism.
    Neocons were originally socially liberal. As far as I know, neocon did not include social conservatism until people started using it as a pejorative against Bush.

  7. #97
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    As far as I know, neocon did not include social conservatism until people started using it as a pejorative against Bush.
    Not true.

    In fact, Irving Kristol, perhaps a minority of these individuals, published an essay in 1971 arguing for the censorship of pornography.

    Neoconservatives were perhaps socially liberal until the rise of the counterculture and a number of the social movements in the 1960s and 1970s. Since then, they had reacted negatively to what they deemed excesses in those movements. After that point, they had begun to promote traditional values, values that many had believed they themselves always stood for, but had come under attack. As Daniel Bell always described himself: Socialist in economics, liberal in politics, and a conservative in culture.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 09-12-14 at 01:09 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  8. #98
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    It use to be that way. The idea of the League of Nations and the United Nations along with being the policeman of the world and to right the wrongs were definitely liberal ideas. Wilson, FDR, Truman etc. The basic tenets of a traditional conservative are:
    1. Avoiding foreign entanglements or one could say isolationism.
    2. Fiscal Responsibility, balancing the budget every year with no deficits.
    3. Keeping government out of a citizens personal business and lives, in other words small government.

    The neoconservatives in my view have thrown the original tenets of traditional conservatism out the window. My political views fall in line more with traditional conservatism than the neoconservatism.
    Isolationism is used as a dirty word. Even though, no strict constitutionalist or libertarian type, or classical liberal for that matter, have any interest in isolationism. There are a host of ways the US can and should engage in world affairs. It's the intrigue and covert (which by definition have little or no oversight) that cause so many heartburn. Since when would avoiding 'entanglements' be a negative. And then of course avoiding pre-emptive, and otherwise, wars of choice must be a positive position, and wars like our exploitive banana wars in Latin America are the type of thing that those labeled as isolationists wish to avoid. Any resource wars, for that matter. Like the one Chuck Hagel was speaking of here,

    People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America's national interest. What the hell do you think they're talking about? We're not there for figs.

    Chuck Hagel 2007
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #99
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Not true. Neoconservatives were perhaps socially liberal until the rise of the counterculture and a number of the social movements in the 1960s and 1970s. Since then, they had reacted negatively to what they deemed excesses in those movements. After that point, they had begun to promote traditional values, values that many had believed they themselves always stood for, but had come under attack. As Daniel Bell always described himself: Socialist in economics, liberal in politics, and a conservative in culture.

    In fact, Irving Kristol, perhaps a minority of these individuals, published an essay in 1971 arguing for the censorship of pornography.
    Who would you include in the neocon camp today?

  10. #100
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    Re: Are Neocons Really Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Who would you include in the neocon camp today?
    That's a difficult thing to have me put out quickly and the list would be long. I'm only going to throw out a dozen or so names. But many of the original or 2nd generation neoconservatives are still alive and well. These names include persons that are either domestic policy, intellectual/academic neoconservatives, or foreign policy neoconservatives. No single group has to traverse into the other. Here's some.

    Nathan Glazer
    Michael Novak
    Norman Podhoretz
    John Podhoretz
    Gertrude Himmelfarb
    Midge Decter
    Ben Wattenberg
    Harry Jaffa
    Harvey Mansfield
    Irwin Stelzer
    Paul Wolfowitz
    William Kristol
    Richard Perle
    Francis Fukuyama (although he later disavowed them, I read closely, and I didn't get the feeling he rejected it so much as asked for a better neoconservatism)
    Robert Kagan
    Richard Pipes
    Daniel Pipes

    [...]

    Would not include: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Nitze...
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 09-12-14 at 01:22 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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