View Poll Results: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

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Thread: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    What examples of violence in scripture are found in Christianity? I have no Idea what scripture you have in mind.
    There are all sorts of accounts of genocide and various crimes against humanity chronicled in the Old Testament.

    Deuteronomy 2:31-35:

    31 And the Lord said to me, ‘Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to take possession, that you may occupy his land.’ 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Jahaz. 33 [B]And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. 34 And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors. 35 Only the livestock we took as spoil for ourselves, with the plunder of the cities that we captured.

    As I pointed out earlier in the thread:

    Numbers 31:7-18

    7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

    13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

    15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


    So in the above case the Israelites were to kill all the men, women, and children with the exception of little virgin girls whom they could take and rape as spoils of war.

    Here is another extremely violent example in scripture:

    Hosea 13:16

    16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
    because they have rebelled against their God.
    They will fall by the sword;
    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
    their pregnant women ripped open.


    There are plenty more examples like that in the Old Testament.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  2. #32
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    What do you mean by Christian scripture? Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy does not constitute Christian scripture. Jesus despised the traditions of old. There are some violent references in the New Testament but they are a lot more subtle than the Old Testament references.
    Sorry for the delay in responding, I just saw this. The Gospels are very clear on the role of the Old Testament with regard to Christianity. Jesus himself said:

    Matthew 5:17

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
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  3. #33
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    There are all sorts of accounts of genocide and various crimes against humanity chronicled in the Old Testament.

    Deuteronomy 2:31-35:

    31 And the Lord said to me, ‘Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to take possession, that you may occupy his land.’ 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Jahaz. 33 [B]And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. 34 And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors. 35 Only the livestock we took as spoil for ourselves, with the plunder of the cities that we captured.

    As I pointed out earlier in the thread:

    Numbers 31:7-18

    7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

    13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

    15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


    So in the above case the Israelites were to kill all the men, women, and children with the exception of little virgin girls whom they could take and rape as spoils of war.

    Here is another extremely violent example in scripture:

    Hosea 13:16

    16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
    because they have rebelled against their God.
    They will fall by the sword;
    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
    their pregnant women ripped open.


    There are plenty more examples like that in the Old Testament.
    These cultural practices were given to Jewish society specifically for their culture and the establishment of ancient Israel. These do not apply to Christians at all. The thing you have to re-examine is the context of what you are reading. You need to know to whom the individual book was written, and for what purpose it is written. Now you may say "Christians hold to both old and new testaments" and that would be correct. However the Christian looks for the lesson and instruction that the historical event provides, We do not believe each historical act is to be emulated. So your examples are poor.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  4. #34
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Sorry for the delay in responding, I just saw this. The Gospels are very clear on the role of the Old Testament with regard to Christianity. Jesus himself said:

    Matthew 5:17

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
    Well you certainly missed the point of what Jesus was saying. How do you think Jesus "fulfilled" the law and the prophets? What do you suppose that meant? It certainly didn't mean that he intended to continue with the practices contained in the culture.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    These cultural practices were given to Jewish society specifically for their culture and the establishment of ancient Israel. These do not apply to Christians at all. The thing you have to re-examine is the context of what you are reading. You need to know to whom the individual book was written, and for what purpose it is written. Now you may say "Christians hold to both old and new testaments" and that would be correct. However the Christian looks for the lesson and instruction that the historical event provides, We do not believe each historical act is to be emulated. So your examples are poor.
    They were commandments of God to the Israelites. They are no different than commandments of Allah to the Arabs at the time of the Koran. You are right that they reflect the culture of the time. Thats the thing, in both cases they reflected the culture of the time (they had the same violent culture at the time). If you don't think that Christians have committed genocide in the name of God then I suppose you know nothing about the crusades, what happened to native peoples around the world in the colonial era, or for that matter the Bosnian Genocide just back in the 1990s. The only reason why Christianity is less violent today than Islam is that Christianity has been subjected to modernity for longer. After all, it wasn't that long ago that an entire race of people were enslaved by Christians that justified it by scripture.
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Well you certainly missed the point of what Jesus was saying. How do you think Jesus "fulfilled" the law and the prophets? What do you suppose that meant? It certainly didn't mean that he intended to continue with the practices contained in the culture.
    Of course it didn't. Well not completely. My point was that he did not come and just say "burn the Torah, disregard all you have been told before". In this case, the Gospel According to Matthew was written to a Jewish audience.

    Theological notes for that particular verse are below:

    [5:17–20] This statement of Jesus’ position concerning the Mosaic law is composed of traditional material from Matthew’s sermon documentation (see note on Mt 5:1–7:29), other Q material (cf. Mt 18; Lk 16:17), and the evangelist’s own editorial touches. To fulfill the law appears at first to mean a literal enforcement of the law in the least detail: until heaven and earth pass away nothing of the law will pass (Mt 5:18). Yet the “passing away” of heaven and earth is not necessarily the end of the world understood, as in much apocalyptic literature, as the dissolution of the existing universe. The “turning of the ages” comes with the apocalyptic event of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of “new heavens and a new earth” (Is 65:17; 66:22). Meanwhile, during Jesus’ ministry when the kingdom is already breaking in, his mission remains within the framework of the law, though with significant anticipation of the age to come, as the following antitheses (Mt 5:21–48) show.
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    The point in all of this is that peaceful Muslims look to the Koran and see a religion of peace. Peaceful Christians look to the Bible and see a religion of peace. Violent Muslims look to the Koran and see a religion that commands them to defend their faith by any means necessary. Violent Christians look to the Bible and see a religion that commands them to defend their faith by any means necessary. The only difference today is that there are more fundamentalist violent Muslims than fundamentalist violent Christians.

    Of course a peaceful Christian would look at a violent Christian's interpretation of scripture and think its heretical. Similarly, a peaceful Muslim looks at an Islamists interpretation of the Koran and thinks its heretical. However, the point is that both Christianity, Islam, and Judaism can find plenty of examples of some of the most violent acts imaginable in their respective holy scriptures.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    They were commandments of God to the Israelites. They are no different than commandments of Allah to the Arabs at the time of the Koran. You are right that they reflect the culture of the time. Thats the thing, in both cases they reflected the culture of the time (they had the same violent culture at the time). If you don't think that Christians have committed genocide in the name of God then I suppose you know nothing about the crusades, what happened to native peoples around the world in the colonial era, or for that matter the Bosnian Genocide just back in the 1990s. The only reason why Christianity is less violent today than Islam is that Christianity has been subjected to modernity for longer. After all, it wasn't that long ago that an entire race of people were enslaved by Christians that justified it by scripture.
    The difference here is that with Christianity there is no overt command to take action against anyone. Fallible Christians have used religion to justify evil acts to be sure, but that based on poor interpretation or more probably perverting text to suit ones own ambition. In Judaism there is lawful commands that in specific instances call for vengence, however forgiveness, mercy and compassion are also given as alternatives, remember God says "I prefer mercy not sacrafice". In Islam there is no need for poor interpretation, there are overt references to violence and murder as being the right thing to do.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Of course it didn't. Well not completely. My point was that he did not come and just say "burn the Torah, disregard all you have been told before". In this case, the Gospel According to Matthew was written to a Jewish audience.

    Theological notes for that particular verse are below:

    [5:17–20] This statement of Jesus’ position concerning the Mosaic law is composed of traditional material from Matthew’s sermon documentation (see note on Mt 5:1–7:29), other Q material (cf. Mt 18; Lk 16:17), and the evangelist’s own editorial touches. To fulfill the law appears at first to mean a literal enforcement of the law in the least detail: until heaven and earth pass away nothing of the law will pass (Mt 5:18). Yet the “passing away” of heaven and earth is not necessarily the end of the world understood, as in much apocalyptic literature, as the dissolution of the existing universe. The “turning of the ages” comes with the apocalyptic event of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of “new heavens and a new earth” (Is 65:17; 66:22). Meanwhile, during Jesus’ ministry when the kingdom is already breaking in, his mission remains within the framework of the law, though with significant anticipation of the age to come, as the following antitheses (Mt 5:21–48) show.
    Exactly, a Jewish audience, who would have understood that the fulfillment of the law is an act of atonement. Nothing to do with applying Jewish cultural practices to Christian followers. As Paul says, The "Law" is given to accuse and convict all men Christ is come to be a propitiation for all.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  10. #40
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    Re: Is Yawehism a "Religion of Peace"?

    The OT enemies of Jews are Long Gone, whereas the Koran's enemies: Jews, Christians, (IOW, us) and Pagans (Hindus/Buddhists/etc) are Still here and that scripture Still Invoked by TODAY's Muslims.
    If your hear "Allah Akhbar" and you're not a Muslim.. DUCK!

    Muslims, that is, that UNLIKE Jews and Christians, are in FAR greater number/MAJORITY/Mainstream Literalist. And Literalist to a Holy Book that is Less compatible with Western Values: Tolerance and Freedom.
    Despite the SICK Socialist posts of paschendale that seek to say they're all the same.

    Indeed, when the Islam/Peaceful poll came up, his First post was to say that Islam 'was as peaceful as anyone else.'
    But when Judaism came up.. it was Right to "Genocide and Rape."

    In FACT, the world is Rife with DAILY examples of Violence and Intolerance by Islam's adherents which Overwhelm all other religions put togther in Persecuting and Killing others.
    It's a scourge from Mauritania, to Mumbai, to Mindinao.
    You don't have to get to the airport an hour early, and still wouldn't have to, save Muslim Terror.

    That, Ladies and gentlemen, is how partisanship Perverts the truth, and why many Understandably 'confuse' Leftism with anti-semitism.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-09-14 at 12:47 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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