View Poll Results: What is the War in Ukraine about?

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    27 69.23%
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Thread: What is the War in Ukraine about?

  1. #81
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    All things as you described, certainly.
    Which is basically what happened in Ukraine. Even if government snipers didn't kill protestors, Yanukovych instituted policies that restricted people's basic civil liberties. Russia did invade Ukraine and does fund rebels to destabilize the country, yet you support them in something that you'd oppose if the US was doing it.

    Also, sorry how I said that the US would be funding cartels and militias "in Ukraine." Should have said Mexico
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    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  2. #82
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Which is basically what happened in Ukraine. Even if government snipers didn't kill protestors, Yanukovych instituted policies that restricted people's basic civil liberties. Russia did invade Ukraine and does fund rebels to destabilize the country, yet you support them in something that you'd oppose if the US was doing it.

    Also, sorry how I said that the US would be funding cartels and militias "in Ukraine." Should have said Mexico
    Yeah, I knew what you meant. And I don't agree with you that that is what happened in Ukraine. For one, if Russia's negotiations and offers to Ukraine are to be depicted as bribes, then the EU/US negotiations with Ukraine must be described as bribery as well. As to the snipers, there are people who have claimed that they were not Yanukovych's people. It's also well known that NATO wished to deny Russia their Black Sea ports. So Crimea's annexation, BY REFERENDUM, was much more understandable then the hypothetical you proposed.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #83
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    "....Beginning with the Clinton administration, and supported by every subsequent Republican and Democratic president and Congress, the US-led West has unrelentingly moved its military, political and economic power ever closer to post-Soviet Russia. Spearheaded by NATO’s eastward expansion, already encamped in the three former Soviet Baltic republics on Russia’s border—and now augmented by missile defense installations in neighboring states—this bipartisan, winner-take-all approach has come in various forms.

    They include US-funded “democracy promotion” NGOs more deeply involved in Russia’s internal politics than foreign ones are permitted to be in our country; the 1999 bombing of Moscow’s Slav ally Serbia, forcibly detaching its historic province of Kosovo; a US military outpost in former Soviet Georgia (which, along with Ukraine, was one of Putin’s previously declared “red lines”), contributing to a brief proxy war in 2008; and, throughout, one-sided negotiations, called “selective cooperation,” which took concessions from the Kremlin without meaningful White House reciprocity and followed by broken American promises.

    All of this has unfolded, sincerely on the part of some of its proponents, in the name of “democracy” and “sovereign choice” for the many smaller countries involved, but the underlying geopolitical agenda has been clear. During the first East-West conflict over Ukraine, occasioned by its 2004 “Orange Revolution,” an influential Republican columnist, Charles Krauthammer, acknowledged, “This is about Russia first, democracy only second.… The West wants to finish the job begun with the fall of the Berlin Wall and continue Europe’s march to the east.… The great prize is Ukraine.” The late Richard Holbrooke, an aspiring Democratic secretary of state, concurred, hoping even then for Ukraine’s “final break with Moscow” and to “accelerate” Kiev’s membership in NATO.

    That Russia’s political elite has long held this same menacing view of US intentions makes it no less true—or any less consequential. Formally announcing the annexation of Crimea on March 18, Putin vented (not for the first time) Moscow’s longstanding resentments. Several of his assertions were untrue and alarming, but others were reasonable, or at least understandable, not “delusional.” Referring to Western (primarily American) policy-makers since the 1990s, he complained bitterly that they were “trying to drive us into some kind of corner,” “have lied to us many times” and in Ukraine “have crossed the line,” warning: “Everything has its limits.”

    We are left, then, with profoundly conflicting Russian-Western narratives and a political discourse of the uncomprehending, itself often the prelude to war. Putin has been demonized for years, so little he says on Moscow’s behalf receives serious consideration in Washington. His annexation speech, for example, was dismissed as a “package of fictions” by former secretary of state Madeleine Albright. Nothing in Washington’s replies diminishes Putin’s reasonable belief that the EU trade agreement rejected by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in November, and Yanukovych’s overthrow in February by violent street protests, leading to the current "illegitimate" government, were intended to sever Ukraine’s centuries-long ties with Russia and bind it to NATO. (Today’s crisis was triggered by the EU’s reckless ultimatum, despite Putin’s offer of a “tripartite” agreement, which compelled an elected president of a deeply divided country to choose economically between the West and Russia, an approach since criticized by former German chancellors Helmut Kohl and Gerhard Schröder. The EU’s proffered “partnership” also included little-noticed “security” provisions requiring Ukraine’s “convergence” with NATO policies, without mentioning the military alliance.)....
    Cold War Again: Who’s Responsible?
    Stephen F. Cohen April 1, 2014
    Cold War Again: Who
    Great post HT!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    "..If you read enough news and watch enough cable television about the threat of the Islamic State, the radical Sunni Muslim militia group better known simply as ISIS, you will inevitably encounter a parade of retired generals demanding an increased US military presence in the region. They will say that our government should deploy, as retired General Anthony Zinni demanded, up to 10,000 American boots on the ground to battle ISIS. Or as in retired General Jack Keane’s case, they will make more vague demands, such as for “offensive” air strikes and the deployment of more military advisers to the region.

    But what you won’t learn from media coverage of ISIS is that many of these former Pentagon officials have skin in the game as paid directors and advisers to some of the largest military contractors in the world. Ramping up America’s military presence in Iraq and directly entering the war in Syria, along with greater military spending more broadly, is a debatable solution to a complex political and sectarian conflict. But those goals do unquestionably benefit one player in this saga: America’s defense industry...."
    Who

  5. #85
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    "..If you read enough news and watch enough cable television about the threat of the Islamic State, the radical Sunni Muslim militia group better known simply as ISIS, you will inevitably encounter a parade of retired generals demanding an increased US military presence in the region. They will say that our government should deploy, as retired General Anthony Zinni demanded, up to 10,000 American boots on the ground to battle ISIS. Or as in retired General Jack Keane’s case, they will make more vague demands, such as for “offensive” air strikes and the deployment of more military advisers to the region.

    But what you won’t learn from media coverage of ISIS is that many of these former Pentagon officials have skin in the game as paid directors and advisers to some of the largest military contractors in the world. Ramping up America’s military presence in Iraq and directly entering the war in Syria, along with greater military spending more broadly, is a debatable solution to a complex political and sectarian conflict. But those goals do unquestionably benefit one player in this saga: America’s defense industry...."
    Who
    Yep, not the kind of thing very many people here will acknowledge.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #86
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    So Crimea's annexation, BY REFERENDUM, was much more understandable then the hypothetical you proposed.
    The Crimea referendum was clearly illegal according to the constitutions of Ukraine and Crimea. In both documents, any change in the status of Crimea could only occur with the approval of the Ukrainian parliament. This is one of the reasons why the snap-referendum and subsequent annexation by the Russian Federation was declared illegal by a vote of the UN General Assembly on 27 March 2014.

  7. #87
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The Crimea referendum was clearly illegal according to the constitutions of Ukraine and Crimea. In both documents, any change in the status of Crimea could only occur with the approval of the Ukrainian parliament. This is one of the reasons why the snap-referendum and subsequent annexation by the Russian Federation was declared illegal by a vote of the UN General Assembly on 27 March 2014.
    And the Western backed coup, and installation of a pro-Western government was legal. Btw, there's something like 90 chapter six UN resolutions (more than any other country) against Israel, including on war crimes, and they keep trudging right along with not a skip in their step, or a formal criticism from the US/West. When that's pointed out, we basically hear, **** the UN.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  8. #88
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And the Western backed coup, and installation of a pro-Western government was legal.
    You are the one who brought up the Crimea referendum. I explained to you why the snap-referendum was illegitimate and illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Btw, there's something like 90 chapter six UN resolutions (more than any other country) against Israel, including on war crimes, and they keep trudging right along with not a skip in their step, or a formal criticism from the US/West. When that's pointed out, we basically hear, **** the UN.
    Israel is not germane to Ukraine.

  9. #89
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    You are the one who brought up the Crimea referendum. I explained to you why the snap-referendum was illegitimate and illegal.


    Israel is not germane to Ukraine.
    Yes, the same UN that has passed 90 odd chapter six resolutions on Israel, declared Russia's action in Ukraine to be illegal, I got that.

    And of course Israel isn't germane to Ukraine, but the UN!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    I mentioned "All NATO members are going to walk away from the United Nations after the collapse of the U.S. empire."

    I would like to add ....

    The only incident which I feel might speed up NATO members abandoning the United Nations is if Israel is found to be guilty of war crimes in Gaza.

    If the United Nations finds that both Israel and Hamas committed war crimes, that is game over for the United Nations.

    Hamas will not be too embarrassed across the universe because it has already been branded a terrorist organization. Hamas is just a "Terrorist Organization" and Israel is said to be a "State" with a conscience which dates back to the holocaust at least.

    Israel will live with this War Crime Branding forever .... If an overwhelming majority of the world population has them being found guilty of war crimes, even though it may suffer a U.S. veto at the Security Council, is one of those "Never Forget" things. The world shame will be totally immense.

    If Israel is found guilty of war crimes, and it will be if the case is reviewed by the United Nations, Israel will not want to remain as a U.N. member after calling the ambassadors representing 90 percent of the world population anti-semites.

    NATO will follow and support Israel's decision.

    However; Israel may very well agree to lift the embargo against Palestine and completely pay for reconstruction if they can find somebody within the Palestinian leadership to agree not to bring the War Crime charges to the United Nations for consideration. There is about a 2 year window of opportunity to circumvent the process before an actual UN General Assembly member vote.

    Calm
    While individual Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes the same as any army ever the state of Israel has not committed war crimes as a matter of government policy, the UNGA has no legal authority to find anyone guilty of anything.

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