View Poll Results: What is the War in Ukraine about?

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  • Big Energy and Big Profits!

    10 25.64%
  • Russian Imperialism!

    27 69.23%
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    3 7.69%
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    5 12.82%
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Thread: What is the War in Ukraine about?

  1. #71
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The Indian wars weren't the end of it either. No aggression on the part of Russia, not in regards to Ukraine, none whatsoever.
    Alright, let me ask you a hypothetical question.

    Let's say that the current President of Mexico was extremely corrupt. He had been voted into office on order to integrate economically with Venezuela and Cuba, but he reneged on his promises due to American bribes and instead expanded NAFTA. When almost half of the country opposes this policy, and hundreds of thousands of Mexicans protest peacefully in the capital, he deploys snipers and militarized police to quell the protests, and institutes laws restricting free speech and association. The situation becomes so bad that even his own party abandons him and he's removed by the Mexican Congress with less than the required vote. After granting this man asylum, the US then invades Yucatan (using a BS referendum to justify it) and funds cartels and militias to destabilize Ukraine.

    Would you consider the US' actions to be aggressive?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    There was a 50/50 split. Hardly justification for the coup. And there were not a million people in Maiden square, of a country with 45 million citizens. Self determination is supported by the US ONLY when the results favor US business interests.
    Spent a number of years living in Ukraine. Was there just recently. A vast and largely beautiful country. Quite addictive.

  3. #73
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Spent a number of years living in Ukraine. Was there just recently. A vast and largely beautiful country. Quite addictive.
    Interesting, thanks for sharing that!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Alright, let me ask you a hypothetical question.

    Let's say that the current President of Mexico was extremely corrupt. He had been voted into office on order to integrate economically with Venezuela and Cuba, but he reneged on his promises due to American bribes and instead expanded NAFTA. When almost half of the country opposes this policy, and hundreds of thousands of Mexicans protest peacefully in the capital, he deploys snipers and militarized police to quell the protests, and institutes laws restricting free speech and association. The situation becomes so bad that even his own party abandons him and he's removed by the Mexican Congress with less than the required vote. After granting this man asylum, the US then invades Yucatan (using a BS referendum to justify it) and funds cartels and militias to destabilize Ukraine.

    Would you consider the US' actions to be aggressive?


    That's a completely invalid comparison and wrong on so many levels....

    You failed to mention the example government was duly elected. You fail, like most Americans, to mention the corruption is "alleged" and unproven in any court of law. You failed to mention that he took extreme measures AFTER CIA backed unrest had become an issue. You fail to mention that no one asked for the CIA involvement.

    You fail to mention that more than half the population of the sample country identify as Russian and that the CIA engaged in filth column activities contrary to a host of treaties. And you fail to mention the CIA ramped this up during the Olympics when they thought their scary boogie man Putin wasn't looking.

    In Russia, they compare this to Canada, where corruption is alleged by Russia, used as an excuse to instigate unrest and drive out the duly elected government in favor of a pro-Russian puppet, like so much American "regime change".

    The US would not hesitate to send tanks into Canada in that situation.

    You all forget Ukraine and Crimea where signatories to various eastern bloc treaties, just like Canada is a member of NATO, NAFTA etc. The US tried to change that and failed.
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  5. #75
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    That's a completely invalid comparison and wrong on so many levels....

    You failed to mention the example government was duly elected. You fail, like most Americans, to mention the corruption is "alleged" and unproven in any court of law. You failed to mention that he took extreme measures AFTER CIA backed unrest had become an issue. You fail to mention that no one asked for the CIA involvement.

    You fail to mention that more than half the population of the sample country identify as Russian and that the CIA engaged in filth column activities contrary to a host of treaties. And you fail to mention the CIA ramped this up during the Olympics when they thought their scary boogie man Putin wasn't looking.

    In Russia, they compare this to Canada, where corruption is alleged by Russia, used as an excuse to instigate unrest and drive out the duly elected government in favor of a pro-Russian puppet, like so much American "regime change".

    The US would not hesitate to send tanks into Canada in that situation.

    You all forget Ukraine and Crimea where signatories to various eastern bloc treaties, just like Canada is a member of NATO, NAFTA etc. The US tried to change that and failed.
    1. You forget that there is not one shred of evidence of CIA involvement in Ukraine.

    2. You forget that a leader doesn't need to actually be convicted in a court of law to be driven out of office.

    3. You forget that nothing that occurs in Ukrainian internal politics serves as justification for the de facto conquest of internationally recognized Ukrainian territory.

    4. You forget that actual coup governments tend to be overthrown by the regional hegemon, a la Grenada. If this was actually a coup rather than a revolution, Russia would most likely have intervened directly rather than forcibly annexing Crimea and funding insurgents in Donbass.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    1. You forget that there is not one shred of evidence of CIA involvement in Ukraine.

    2. You forget that a leader doesn't need to actually be convicted in a court of law to be driven out of office.

    3. You forget that nothing that occurs in Ukrainian internal politics serves as justification for the de facto conquest of internationally recognized Ukrainian territory.

    4. You forget that actual coup governments tend to be overthrown by the regional hegemon, a la Grenada. If this was actually a coup rather than a revolution, Russia would most likely have intervened directly rather than forcibly annexing Crimea and funding insurgents in Donbass.


    Oh really...?

    OK that tape the world heard about with a senior State Department official rambling about how "we glue this thing together" was from a movie?
    ,m
    And where the **** do YOU get to decide who s guilty of what? Neither you nor even the CIA, according to you, was anywhere near Kyiv so how in any sane world would it be possible to determine guilt or innocence?

    Oh wait, "regime change"...the United States gets to determine who has what government based on say so, regardless of such things as "due process" and "rights" and so forth.

    If it's so OK to "drive a leader from office" how come the US has a constitution forbidding that? Or is that only for "Americans", the rest of the world has to do what it says regardless of the native constitution?

    You need some work on your basic civics and human rights, saying a someone is a bad guy is NOT how the rest of the world thinks
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  7. #77
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Oh really...?

    OK that tape the world heard about with a senior State Department official rambling about how "we glue this thing together" was from a movie?
    ,m
    And where the **** do YOU get to decide who s guilty of what? Neither you nor even the CIA, according to you, was anywhere near Kyiv so how in any sane world would it be possible to determine guilt or innocence?

    Oh wait, "regime change"...the United States gets to determine who has what government based on say so, regardless of such things as "due process" and "rights" and so forth.

    If it's so OK to "drive a leader from office" how come the US has a constitution forbidding that? Or is that only for "Americans", the rest of the world has to do what it says regardless of the native constitution?

    You need some work on your basic civics and human rights, saying a someone is a bad guy is NOT how the rest of the world thinks
    The State Department phone conversation was pertaining to the US government being friendly with those who will come into power after the revolution. Which is how diplomacy works. It's not proof of anything; it's circumstantial at best.

    I'm not saying that the CIA should have had a role in overthrowing Yanukovych. However, if Ukrainians have to be a little extralegal in order to overthrow an increasingly despotic kleptocrat who aligned with Russia against the wishes of at least half of Ukrainians, then by all means let them do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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  8. #78
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The State Department phone conversation was pertaining to the US government being friendly with those who will come into power after the revolution. Which is how diplomacy works. It's not proof of anything; it's circumstantial at best.

    I'm not saying that the CIA should have had a role in overthrowing Yanukovych. However, if Ukrainians have to be a little extralegal in order to overthrow an increasingly despotic kleptocrat who aligned with Russia against the wishes of at least half of Ukrainians, then by all means let them do so.


    OK, we're done here.

    I heard that tape....

    And you have no argument for "regime change" and where you or anyone elsae gets to determine anything. The United States is wrong, wrong, wrong on Ukraine and central Europe.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    "....Beginning with the Clinton administration, and supported by every subsequent Republican and Democratic president and Congress, the US-led West has unrelentingly moved its military, political and economic power ever closer to post-Soviet Russia. Spearheaded by NATO’s eastward expansion, already encamped in the three former Soviet Baltic republics on Russia’s border—and now augmented by missile defense installations in neighboring states—this bipartisan, winner-take-all approach has come in various forms.

    They include US-funded “democracy promotion” NGOs more deeply involved in Russia’s internal politics than foreign ones are permitted to be in our country; the 1999 bombing of Moscow’s Slav ally Serbia, forcibly detaching its historic province of Kosovo; a US military outpost in former Soviet Georgia (which, along with Ukraine, was one of Putin’s previously declared “red lines”), contributing to a brief proxy war in 2008; and, throughout, one-sided negotiations, called “selective cooperation,” which took concessions from the Kremlin without meaningful White House reciprocity and followed by broken American promises.

    All of this has unfolded, sincerely on the part of some of its proponents, in the name of “democracy” and “sovereign choice” for the many smaller countries involved, but the underlying geopolitical agenda has been clear. During the first East-West conflict over Ukraine, occasioned by its 2004 “Orange Revolution,” an influential Republican columnist, Charles Krauthammer, acknowledged, “This is about Russia first, democracy only second.… The West wants to finish the job begun with the fall of the Berlin Wall and continue Europe’s march to the east.… The great prize is Ukraine.” The late Richard Holbrooke, an aspiring Democratic secretary of state, concurred, hoping even then for Ukraine’s “final break with Moscow” and to “accelerate” Kiev’s membership in NATO.

    That Russia’s political elite has long held this same menacing view of US intentions makes it no less true—or any less consequential. Formally announcing the annexation of Crimea on March 18, Putin vented (not for the first time) Moscow’s longstanding resentments. Several of his assertions were untrue and alarming, but others were reasonable, or at least understandable, not “delusional.” Referring to Western (primarily American) policy-makers since the 1990s, he complained bitterly that they were “trying to drive us into some kind of corner,” “have lied to us many times” and in Ukraine “have crossed the line,” warning: “Everything has its limits.”

    We are left, then, with profoundly conflicting Russian-Western narratives and a political discourse of the uncomprehending, itself often the prelude to war. Putin has been demonized for years, so little he says on Moscow’s behalf receives serious consideration in Washington. His annexation speech, for example, was dismissed as a “package of fictions” by former secretary of state Madeleine Albright. Nothing in Washington’s replies diminishes Putin’s reasonable belief that the EU trade agreement rejected by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in November, and Yanukovych’s overthrow in February by violent street protests, leading to the current "illegitimate" government, were intended to sever Ukraine’s centuries-long ties with Russia and bind it to NATO. (Today’s crisis was triggered by the EU’s reckless ultimatum, despite Putin’s offer of a “tripartite” agreement, which compelled an elected president of a deeply divided country to choose economically between the West and Russia, an approach since criticized by former German chancellors Helmut Kohl and Gerhard Schröder. The EU’s proffered “partnership” also included little-noticed “security” provisions requiring Ukraine’s “convergence” with NATO policies, without mentioning the military alliance.)....
    Cold War Again: Who’s Responsible?
    Stephen F. Cohen April 1, 2014
    Cold War Again: Who

  10. #80
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    Re: What is the War in Ukraine about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Alright, let me ask you a hypothetical question.

    Let's say that the current President of Mexico was extremely corrupt. He had been voted into office on order to integrate economically with Venezuela and Cuba, but he reneged on his promises due to American bribes and instead expanded NAFTA. When almost half of the country opposes this policy, and hundreds of thousands of Mexicans protest peacefully in the capital, he deploys snipers and militarized police to quell the protests, and institutes laws restricting free speech and association. The situation becomes so bad that even his own party abandons him and he's removed by the Mexican Congress with less than the required vote. After granting this man asylum, the US then invades Yucatan (using a BS referendum to justify it) and funds cartels and militias to destabilize Ukraine.

    Would you consider the US' actions to be aggressive?
    All things as you described, certainly. Now then, let me ask you a hypothetical.

    Suppose that Yanukovych had discontinued negotiations with Russia, deciding that Ukraine would get a better deal from the EU, and forged an agreement with them, resulting in a large portion of Ukrainian population protesting with Russian support, that morphed into a coup that resulted in the removal of Yanukovych, replacing him with a pro-Russian government that would now sign deals with Russia that favored Russian business interests. And the EU/US responded by moving into Western Ukraine and annexing it. Would you support that.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 09-14-14 at 05:32 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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