View Poll Results: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

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Thread: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

  1. #61
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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    The Western powers have been screwing countries up around the world for centuries now. They invade or help overthrow countries and make them worse (Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Libya, Egypt...) at huge monetary and human cost, and don't protect citizens of the world when they should, ie, Rwanda, Nigeria...

    So the reluctance to help Assad makes the US look pretty stupid. We should have left the 'iron men' of the Middle East alone, unless they directly threatened us, but now we truly have good reason to destroy ISIS, because they are a direct threat to Western countries, and morally because we in effect created them.

  2. #62
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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Like all of us know the options are on the table for the USA to bomb ISIS in Syria. With that in mind if If the we are going to bomb ISIS in Syria should the we work With Syrian State?

    **When I say "We" I mean the US gov**
    No, unless he makes a power-sharing agreement or truce with the rebels. If we simply support him and abandon all support for the moderate rebels, he'll just kill people en masse - we can probably anticipate massive "collateral damage" from his attempts to seize Raqqa and other Syrian cities, if not a bona fide massacre. He'll then be in a better position to defeat the opposition and violate the human rights of against anyone who fought against his regime. Because his rule has been sectarian in nature, we will not have fixed the root cause of ISIS: namely, authoritarian and sectarian leadership that marginalized the Sunnis in Iraq and Syria.

    From a practical standpoint, his assistance would be questionable. I wouldn't trust any intelligence that the Syrian regime gives us in regards to ISIS bombing targets, since there's a good chance that many of those would be areas controlled by the opposition who fight against ISIS.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  3. #63
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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Tell that to Qaddafi and Mubarak.



    Now we're gonna denigrate the entire Arab and Persian "cultures" (read: people)?



    We must take those steps. They are weaponless, powerless and under the tyranny of a mass-murdering dictator. What you're suggesting is like standing aside while a dog mauls a child and saying "well, the kid should have stood up for himself if he really believed in his freedom".



    Fair enough, without your qualifications.



    We do not need to ask Syrians to become terrorists for their freedom. We need to support moderates in the creation of a democratic transitional government, for which a constitution including human rights will be written.

    Without human rights and representation, we'll be in the same place any number of years from now. It's about time Syria began developing and joined us in the developed world. It will require generations and the longer we wait to get started the more difficult it will be.

    For example: the US underestimated the damage Saddam had done to Iraq's social capital. After he was removed from power his party was disbanded and barred. The West expected other players to come to the table, but guess what... they were all dead. There was no other trained social servants to be found. Saddam had killed (or caused to flee) just about every last free critical thinking professional in the country. The utter destruction of Iraq's social capital is the cause of what we see today with ISIS. The "power vacuum" is not so much a Dear Leader as it is a capacity and social infrastructure to maintain human rights.

    It will take a generation or two for Iraq to regrow that social capital (especially given the post-war brain drain). In the meantime, it will not be easy. But when we get there, us and the Iraqis together, it will have been worth it.

    The Syrians deserve to join us.
    Without changing the culture, you won't make any progress. As long as the people will accept the use os violence to take power, you will have violent men running things over there. As far as my "denigrating an enitre culture" is concerned. I got my informationfrom three sources: The first is my Dad's cousin who was on the last plane out of Iran when the Shah was deposed. He worked for as a intermediary between the US state dept. there and the oil cos. The second was a guy I worked with who was born in Syria and who would tell you very plainly that he was a "Persian, dammit, not some stinking Arab". The third is a friend who is hiding in Syria because he's a Christian and his life is in constant danger as a result. So my perspective comes not from wanting to denigrate anyone, but from having access to people who have been there, are there and understand the culture.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  4. #64
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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Without changing the culture, you won't make any progress. As long as the people will accept the use os violence to take power,
    How else does one take power from a dictator. The "culture change" to which you refer is merely developing representative infrastructure - that's how other countries establish power without violence.

  5. #65
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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    How else does one take power from a dictator. The "culture change" to which you refer is merely developing representative infrastructure - that's how other countries establish power without violence.
    ..and then MAINTAINING that structure in the face of people who want to subvert it and take over. There hasn't been any Arab/Persian nation that's had a long term representative gov't and it's doubtful that we will see any soon. Egypt was probably the closest this part of the world has seen and it was a dicatorship with a rubber stamp legislature. Show us an Arab/Perian nation that has a strong, long term representative gov't. An argument might be made for Pakistan, but it's a nation that is strongly influenced by Indian culture and would at the very fringe of the Arab/Persian sphere.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: If the USA is Going to Bomb ISIS in Syria Should the USA Work With Assad?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Like all of us know the options are on the table for the USA to bomb ISIS in Syria. With that in mind if If the we are going to bomb ISIS in Syria should the we work With Syrian State?

    **When I say "We" I mean the US gov**
    I say no. It would feel kind of dirty.It would feel like a bully and the nerd that is being picked on by that bully teaming up to beat up another nerd.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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