View Poll Results: If something is a tradition, should laws must reflect it?

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Thread: Traditions

  1. #81
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Because there's no benefit to it and significant cost to switching. The point of this thread is to address whether the mere fact that switching is happening is an inherent negative. It isn't. Only the benefits and costs are... because any idea, traditional or not, should simply be weighed on its merits.
    And what is the cost to switching?

  2. #82
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    And what is the cost to switching?
    Having to make all the cars with the driver's side on the right, having a lot of cars with the driver on the outside of the road, which is more dangerous, and the very likely situation that people would forget. Driving on the wrong side of the road is already a primary cause of accidents, this would merely exacerbate the situation.

    The obvious mistake you're making is talking about something that is ultimately arbitrary. Which side we drove on in the first place was a completely arbitrary choice. It didn't matter one way or the other. Both options have equal merit. When we're talking about social mores, that is seldom the case.
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  3. #83
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Having to make all the cars with the driver's side on the right, having a lot of cars with the driver on the outside of the road, which is more dangerous, and the very likely situation that people would forget. Driving on the wrong side of the road is already a primary cause of accidents, this would merely exacerbate the situation.

    The obvious mistake you're making is talking about something that is ultimately arbitrary. Which side we drove on in the first place was a completely arbitrary choice. It didn't matter one way or the other. Both options have equal merit. When we're talking about social mores, that is seldom the case.
    So would you acknowledge that tradition can be a valid basis for decision making?

  4. #84
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    So would you acknowledge that tradition can be a valid basis for decision making?
    No, it isn't. And your smug attempt to mischaracterize the issue doesn't change that. Every idea gets evaluated on its merits, regardless of whether it's a new idea or an old one.
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No, it isn't. And your smug attempt to mischaracterize the issue doesn't change that. Every idea gets evaluated on its merits, regardless of whether it's a new idea or an old one.
    Then why shouldn't we change to driving on the left?

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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Then why shouldn't we change to driving on the left?
    Because there is significant cost to doing so and no benefit. I said that already. Do you have some difficulty realizing that which side of the road we drive on and social mores are not equivalent? Do you somehow think that how we drive is a tradition and not simply an arbitrary choice that gives us no benefit to alter? Social mores are not arbitrary. This is your last chance. Are we just playing a stupid game, or are you going to say something of substance?
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  7. #87
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Then why shouldn't we change to driving on the left?
    He has already told you. There is no benefit and a lot of cost to doing it. You have to weigh the cost with the benefit.

    Take using standard units of measure here in America. There actually are a good number of reasons to switch over to the metric system, but we don't. It isn't because we simply want to maintain tradition. It is because it would be hard to do so with how worked into our lives the standard units are, and we are lazy. But when people can work it in without causing major hardships, it is done, without any argument about tradition (there may be an argument about cost or what if problems). But tradition is not there, eventhough it could easily be said that it is tradition for Americans to use the US standard units of measure.
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    If the tradition has a purpose the reasoning would be just as important today as it would have been back then.
    ...not necessarily. For example, traditions that are still prevalent in Middle Eastern architecture, where houses are built in compounds and surrounded with walls in order to help discourage wife-stealing, are no longer necessary in Western housing, where we have evolved a different set of traditions to define how one can find a spouse. Similarly, our cities are no longer walled. So that is a tradition that at one point played an important purpose of helping to disincentivize socially destructive behavior, that is no longer necessary. By understanding the purpose of the walls, we can ascertain whether or not we can get rid of the tradition. Not all purposes are timeless, and conditions that make them best served by one or more adaptation do change.

    Many traditions are just benign. They are neutral. Such as there is nothing really bad about decorating a house in traditional colors of a season. Some have become benign so they aren't really needed but also do no harm. Such as a father giving away a daughter or the family giving away the daughter when she marries or a guy asking permission from a girl's father to marry her. These are traditions that were necessary for the social structure that existed in the past but have since become unnecessary given our new culture where the family has little to no say in who anyone marries. This makes the tradition not needed, so it should not be mandatory, and if it fades away completely, there is nothing wrong with that. But there are some traditions that people want to be mandatory that are harmful or simply should not be made mandatory because others want to be able to not participate in them and there is no need for them to do so.
    I think you are mistaking "traditions that people still see reason for, but with whom you disagree" with "people who want to continue with tradition for no reason". And that is precisely why those of us who are cautious about throwing complex structures overboard feel that folks are doing so without bothering to conduct cost/benefit analysis, or are throwing in shallow, strawman assessments that do not attempt to honestly take into account those traditions' original use and purpose.

  9. #89
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ...not necessarily. For example, traditions that are still prevalent in Middle Eastern architecture, where houses are built in compounds and surrounded with walls in order to help discourage wife-stealing, are no longer necessary in Western housing, where we have evolved a different set of traditions to define how one can find a spouse. Similarly, our cities are no longer walled. So that is a tradition that at one point played an important purpose of helping to disincentivize socially destructive behavior, that is no longer necessary. By understanding the purpose of the walls, we can ascertain whether or not we can get rid of the tradition. Not all purposes are timeless, and conditions that make them best served by one or more adaptation do change.

    I think you are mistaking "traditions that people still see reason for, but with whom you disagree" with "people who want to continue with tradition for no reason". And that is precisely why those of us who are cautious about throwing complex structures overboard feel that folks are doing so without bothering to conduct cost/benefit analysis, or are throwing in shallow, strawman assessments that do not attempt to honestly take into account those traditions' original use and purpose.
    And yet people still construct walls around their own personal homes.

    I never said I disagreed with any of the traditions that I mentioned. (In fact, my father gave me away and my husband asked my father if he could marry me before we got married. Granted we were getting married even if he had said no.) They are traditions that are nothing more than that though. They aren't legally binding, as most aren't and most have no reason to be legally binding otherwise they would be laws not merely traditions.
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And yet people still construct walls around their own personal homes.

    I never said I disagreed with any of the traditions that I mentioned. (In fact, my father gave me away and my husband asked my father if he could marry me before we got married. Granted we were getting married even if he had said no.) They are traditions that are nothing more than that though. They aren't legally binding, as most aren't and most have no reason to be legally binding otherwise they would be laws not merely traditions.
    If I had to live in town, around a bunch of people, I'd LOVE a wall around my house/compound. Maybe people just like privacy or hate dealing with annoyng neighbors.
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