View Poll Results: If something is a tradition, should laws must reflect it?

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  • No

    32 86.49%
  • Yes

    2 5.41%
  • Not Sure

    0 0%
  • I LOVE JEWS!!!!

    6 16.22%
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Thread: Traditions

  1. #51
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I'm not missing anything. Change is inevitable, and can be quite positive.

    I'm not going to deny it.

    I'm simply suggesting that it should be approached cautiously, because haphazard change, for change's sake alone, often tends to lead to outcomes worse than the supposed "injustices" they were meant to correct.

    No, that usually is not because of "traditional values" getting in the way either. Most of the time, it is simply because the "progress" in question was misguided or overzealous to begin with.

    Most of Red Communism's body count, for instance, was due to the "egalitarian" enforcement of collectivized of agriculture. It resulted in famines, more often than not, and required brutal repression in order to keep workers from abandoning the farms in question.
    Communism was hardly "haphazard change, for change's sake alone." Millions of people were completely convinced that it would be a positive influence.

    The fact that they were mistaken is a very weak case against favoring tradition over change.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I'm simply suggesting that it should be approached cautiously, because haphazard change, for change's sake alone, often tends to lead to outcomes worse than the supposed "injustices" they were meant to correct.
    No one ever changes things "for change's sake alone". No one thinks to themselves, "I just support the idea of change, without regard to what we're changing or why". That's a nonsense mantra that privileged people like to toss out in order to further demonize the people they're oppressing by attacking their motives. It's absurd. Again, do you know any actual history, or have you met anyone who wasn't just like you?

    No, that usually is not because of "traditional values" getting in the way either. Most of the time, it is simply because the "progress" in question was misguided or overzealous to begin with.
    Keep telling yourself that. Maybe one day it will be true.

    Most of Red Communism's body count, for instance, was due to the "egalitarian" enforcement of collectivized of agriculture. It resulted in famines, more often than not, and required brutal repression in order to keep workers from abandoning the farms in question.
    Le sigh... Because of course the act of trying to feed everyone is a terrible and horrific idea and anything less than absolute success means that the correct course of action is just to let poor people starve. You have no grasp of the complexities involved in any of this. All you seem to understand is "Commie things bad, America things good".
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  3. #53
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    Communism was hardly "haphazard change, for change's sake alone." Millions of people were completely convinced that it would be a positive influence.
    And millions of people were completely and utterly wrong. There is a lesson to be learned there.

    The fact that they were mistaken is a very weak case against favoring tradition over change.
    A century of abject horror and hundreds of millions dead is a "weak case" for favoring caution over blind leap style "progress?"

    You sure about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No one ever changes things "for change's sake alone". No one thinks to themselves, "I just support the idea of change, without regard to what we're changing or why". That's a nonsense mantra that privileged people like to toss out in order to further demonize the people they're oppressing by attacking their motives. It's absurd. Again, do you know any actual history, or have you met anyone who wasn't just like you?
    Sure they do.

    Granted, they'll usually try to dress it up in some form of emotionally resonant garbage or another.

    i.e. "This is for justice!" "This is for equality!" "This for human progress and a better tomorrow!" Etca.

    Regardless however, the gist of things usually boils down to the fact that a certain idea is "flashy" and "new," which causes hordes of overly idealistic and impressionable people to flock to it against their good sense.

    Again, a lot of the time, that turns out poorly.

    Keep telling yourself that. Maybe one day it will be true.
    Keep your head in the sand.

    I've already provided several examples where it was true.

    Le sigh... Because of course the act of trying to feed everyone is a terrible and horrific idea and anything less than absolute success means that the correct course of action is just to let poor people starve. You have no grasp of the complexities involved in any of this. All you seem to understand is "Commie things bad, America things good".
    And here you simply prove my point!

    For the sake of "progress" and overly idealistic "good intentions," they needlessly monkeyed around with something that worked just fine to begin with. In the process of doing so, they created a system which didn't work, at all, and wound up killing tens of millions of people instead.

    Rather than cop to that mistake, the "true believers" doubled down and relied upon force to make the general population bow to their will, killing yet more people.

  4. #54
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Granted, they'll usually try to dress it up in some form of emotionally resonant garbage or another.

    i.e. "This is for justice!" "This is for equality!" "This for human progress and a better tomorrow!" Etca.

    Regardless however, the gist of things usually boils down to the fact that a certain idea is "flashy" and "new," which causes hordes of overly idealistic and impressionable people to flock to it against their good sense.
    If this is what you think then you really have no idea what's going on. I hope someday you have the opportunity to get to know people who don't live their lives in the lap of comfortable privilege and maybe you'll realize that your fellow Americans aren't horrendously stupid and really are fighting injustice.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    If this is what you think then you really have no idea what's going on. I hope someday you have the opportunity to get to know people who don't live their lives in the lap of comfortable privilege and maybe you'll realize that your fellow Americans aren't horrendously stupid and really are fighting injustice.
    I'm not seeing a counter argument here.

    In any case, yes, I think most Americans, and most human beings in general, for that matter, could probably be aptly described as being "horrendously stupid." They also have a bad tendency to fall for whatever "new thing" happens to come along, so long as it is being peddled by a charismatic charlatan with a talent for pulling public heart-strings.

  6. #56
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    And millions of people were completely and utterly wrong. There is a lesson to be learned there.



    A century of abject horror and hundreds of millions dead is a "weak case" for favoring caution over blind leap style "progress?"

    You sure about that?



    Sure they do.

    Granted, they'll usually try to dress it up in some form of emotionally resonant garbage or another.

    i.e. "This is for justice!" "This is for equality!" "This for human progress and a better tomorrow!" Etca.

    Regardless however, the gist of things usually boils down to the fact that a certain idea is "flashy" and "new," which causes hordes of overly idealistic and impressionable people to flock to it against their good sense.

    Again, a lot of the time, that turns out poorly.



    Keep your head in the sand.

    I've already provided several examples where it was true.



    And here you simply prove my point!

    For the sake of "progress" and overly idealistic "good intentions," they needlessly monkeyed around with something that worked just fine to begin with. In the process of doing so, they created a system which didn't work, at all, and wound up killing tens of millions of people instead.

    Rather than cop to that mistake, the "true believers" doubled down and relied upon force to make the general population bow to their will, killing yet more people.
    Greeting, Gathomas88.

    I think your last sentence says it all. Millions of people in the ME are fleeing for their lives from the "true believers," but are they really that? Or is it that there is a chance that they will triumph and create the change they want, which is not what the people want?

    Communism followed the overthrow of the Czars. Was that change good? Hundreds of millions of people suffered and died, so I think they would say not. A few, only a few, benefited because they were now the "Czar" who made the rules. There are only three choices -Freedom, Tyranny, or Chaos. We're seeing chaos now, and I don't think that's what most people want, because it will move to tyranny - not freedom. And when they got a chance to vote in Egypt, as an example, they rejected tyranny and threw the bums out!

    As you point out, force will be used on the people to get it accomplished, so this won't end well. I hope that the U.S. isn't a partner in this, because this is not how we have presented ourselves to the world - we believe in freedom, not dictators!

  7. #57
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Jews have been hated so long it's become a tradition. My great grandfather hated Jews, my grandfather hated Jews, my father hates Jews....should I hate Jews because it's tradition?

    If something is a tradition, should laws reflect it?

    *note: my family actually doesn't hate Jews, this is just for argument's sake

    EDIT: Haha, brain fart in the poll question.
    Uhm ... traditions are no end in itself, IMO. Some are good, some are bad. We should be able to reflect traditions, for that we can discard the bad and maintain the good. And keep on doing that continously, questioning traditions I mean.

    I think building everything, an entire society on mere rationalism and good intentions for making something new, is an illusion. It will fail. That's why we need traditions. But it's also very bad to cling to old mistakes and errors just for the sake of doing so, obviously. There should be a sane middle way.

    And yeah, if it isn't obvious already, hating Jews is obviously an example for an extremely bad, stupid tradition.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  8. #58
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    Re: Traditions

    This to me is like saying "my grandfather, father and uncles are all Irish drunks, should I be one for traditions sake?"
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  9. #59
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    A century of abject horror and hundreds of millions dead is a "weak case" for favoring caution over blind leap style "progress?"

    You sure about that?
    Except that it wasn't a "blind leap." Plenty of seemingly reasonable arguments had been written in favor of it by the first revolution.

    For the sake of "progress" and overly idealistic "good intentions," they needlessly monkeyed around with something that worked just fine to begin with. In the process of doing so, they created a system which didn't work, at all, and wound up killing tens of millions of people instead.
    Gath, if you honestly believe that czarist Russia and the pre-1949 Republic of China "worked just fine," you desperately need to crack a couple of history books.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Uhm ... traditions are no end in itself, IMO. Some are good, some are bad. We should be able to reflect traditions, for that we can discard the bad and maintain the good. And keep on doing that continously, questioning traditions I mean.

    I think building everything, an entire society on mere rationalism and good intentions for making something new, is an illusion. It will fail. That's why we need traditions. But it's also very bad to cling to old mistakes and errors just for the sake of doing so, obviously. There should be a sane middle way.

    And yeah, if it isn't obvious already, hating Jews is obviously an example for an extremely bad, stupid tradition.
    With that first line you sound eerily like Dolores Umbridge

    Let us preserve what must be preserved, perfect what can be perfected and prune practices that ought to be... prohibited!"
    Traditions are a good thing but only if they still are applicable to this day and age, good traditions should be held in high regard and should be nurtured but we should not dwell on bad traditions that have disappeared in the annals of history. But we should not disregard or forget the bad traditions because he who forgets the bad things from his past is doomed to repeat them. The same goes for countries IMHO.

    Anti-semitism or hatred of Jews should not be nurtured because it is an evil tradition, but we should never forget or ignore it because we can not accept or rationalize hatred of Jews, it must be fought with all possible means.
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