View Poll Results: If something is a tradition, should laws must reflect it?

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    32 86.49%
  • Yes

    2 5.41%
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Thread: Traditions

  1. #31
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Sounds like traditions ought to be weighed on their merits and their status as tradition doesn't matter. Kinda like any other idea, new or old. Funny, that.
    They ought to be, but frequently they aren't.
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Sounds like traditions ought to be weighed on their merits and their status as tradition doesn't matter. Kinda like any other idea, new or old. Funny, that.
    To an extent, but with an important qualification. Both Gath and I agree with the concept that a known system or idea often carries a number of benefits that new ideas do not.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #33
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Sounds like traditions ought to be weighed on their merits and their status as tradition doesn't matter. Kinda like any other idea, new or old. Funny, that.
    Well, yes. I would simply opt more on the side of caution rather than innovation for innovation's sake alone.

    If things have been done a certain way for the last ten thousand years, and the system seems to function at an acceptable level under that model, there's probably a good reason for it.

  4. #34
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Jews have been hated so long it's become a tradition. My great grandfather hated Jews, my grandfather hated Jews, my father hates Jews....should I hate Jews because it's tradition?

    If something is a tradition, should laws reflect it?

    *note: my family actually doesn't hate Jews, this is just for argument's sake

    EDIT: Haha, brain fart in the poll question.
    Of course not. You have a mind of your own.

  5. #35
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    Re: Traditions

    My good friend was Jewish. She took her own life back in January.

  6. #36
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    To an extent, but with an important qualification. Both Gath and I agree with the concept that a known system or idea often carries a number of benefits that new ideas do not.
    And these benefits are? Just because something was a good idea in the past, or was perceived to be a good idea in the past, has no bearing on its usefulness today. The latter distinction is very important, since many calls to preserve tradition aren't done so for good ideas, but merely for privilege enjoyed by certain people over other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Well, yes. I would simply opt more on the side of caution rather than innovation for innovation's sake alone.

    If things have been done a certain way for the last ten thousand years, and the system seems to function at an acceptable level under that model, there's probably a good reason for it.
    Likewise, calls for "caution" are too often simply the reaction to a disadvantaged group crying out for justice. "Acceptable levels" all too often only means acceptable to those who benefit most from a system. But let's be honest, there is nothing we do today that we do the same way we did ten thousand years ago. Our social order is different. Our technology is different. Our values would be unrecognizable to them.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  7. #37
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    Re: Traditions

    The answer is simple. If we believe in liberty and ability to live our lives as we choose and to form ourselves into whatever sorts of societies we wish to have, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with local laws that respect a cherished tradition of the community whether it is a beloved crèche on the courthouse lawn or a Fourth of July parade down Mainstreet or closing all but essential businesses on Sundays or the 'burning of Zozobra" that will happen in Santa Fe tonight.

    Because the Federal government represents all citizens in all states, it should never be the prerogative of the Federal government to either establish nor forbid a local tradition.

    If we would just adhere to that simple principle, it would save us so much grief.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #38
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And these benefits are?
    We actually know they work, for one.

    Likewise, calls for "caution" are too often simply the reaction to a disadvantaged group crying out for justice. "Acceptable levels" all too often only means acceptable to those who benefit most from a system. But let's be honest, there is nothing we do today that we do the same way we did ten thousand years ago. Our social order is different. Our technology is different. Our values would be unrecognizable to them.
    A lot of the time, those reactionary fears turn out to be well founded.

    Jumping onto the latest bandwagon for blind idealism and "PROGRESS!!!1!!1" sakes alone is how we wound up with disasters like the French Revolution, Napoleon, Eugenics, "Scientific Racism," Soviet Communism, Adolf Hitler, and the appalling messes that were 19th Century and early 20th Century medicine.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 08-29-14 at 08:20 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And these benefits are? Just because something was a good idea in the past, or was perceived to be a good idea in the past, has no bearing on its usefulness today.
    Traditions can be good for removing (but also instilling, as you would rightly point out) alienation. In terms of public policy, traditions can establish at the very least small nuggets of truth as to what works, has worked, and what is desirable. Change is necessary, evaluating new ideas is also necessary, but balancing it with preexisting knowledge and traditions is also just as necessary. It has a "bearing" on usefulness in contemporary times as well as the future.

    Likewise, calls for "caution" are too often simply the reaction to a disadvantaged group crying out for justice.
    Often, yes. A rule, no. Caution is also used by disadvantaged groups wishing to prevent the advantaged from carrying out injustices.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  10. #40
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    Re: Traditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    We actually know they work, for one.
    They don't work. That's the whole point.

    A lot of the time, those reactionary fears turn out to be well founded.

    Jumping onto the latest bandwagon for blind idealism and "PROGRESS!!!1!!1" sakes alone is how we wound up with disasters like the French Revolution, Napoleon, Eugenics, "Scientific Racism," Soviet Communism, Adolf Hitler, and the appalling messes that were 19th Century and early 20th Century medicine.
    That's pretty funny. That massive violence or racism come from attempts at progress is a good joke. The "scientific racism" that you refer so was attempts to push traditions of bigotry and hate onto progress and science. It was a perversion of science and progress. Likewise it's hilarious that you think there was anything progressive about fascist regimes. They were all about tradition and traditional authoritarian models.

    And why do you think that idealism is blind?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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